Community Symposium on molecular basis of MECFS! DISCUSSION THREAD!

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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A drug company that doesn't want to sell a drug to doctors who wish to purchase it? Because it may treat a disease they don't consider infectious?
I had the impression that it was an financial decision for Bayor too. Apparently Suramin is easy to make and cheap--little profit, especially since they can't sell in the US and probably a number of other countries.
Why do they need to fund a trial at all, they just need to sell some to Dr Naviaux. Hes obviously a doctor allowed to work with FDA approved drugs, and its obviously not an expensive product to make some extra of.
It sadly isn't an FDA approved drug so it has to be in a trial.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
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16,171
Same here, i have had some good docs also but dealing with morons has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Me, too, and I had some horrible experiences including one that almost sabotaged my future ability to receive care. But I know there are good and bad docs everywhere and this is universal and I have forgiven all those who wronged me (even though not easy).


I agree with doing the blood testing with Dr. Davis's device on those who have had Rituximab. If OMI still has stored blood from me (which they might?) which would be pre-Ritux, I'd be willing to participate if this could in any way be helpful.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
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It sadly isn't an FDA approved drug so it has to be in a trial.

I still don't fully understand Suramin, but are there other countries in which Dr. Naviaux could buy it from or travel to and do the testing there? (Only if 100% legal of course and I am not sure how this all works).
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
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3,119
It sadly isn't an FDA approved drug so it has to be in a trial.
If it is not that could be the problem. However another company agreeing to manufacture it would not solve that, so i am still confused.
 

Sushi

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I still don't fully understand Suramin, but are there other countries in which Dr. Naviaux could buy it from or travel to and do the testing there? (Only if 100% legal of course and I am not sure how this all works).
As I understand it, even for a trial you need a supply, and at present, the only supply is in the hands of WHO I believe--so he would have to get it from them.
However another company agreeing to manufacture it would not solve that, so i am still confused.
They could get the supply they need for a trial. Of course this is just my understanding--others may have more accurate information.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
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They could get the supply they need for a trial. Of course this is just my understanding--others may have more accurate information.
He said he could not if i understood correctly.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
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They could get a supply if another manufacturer started making it.
But why can they not get a supply form Bayer, not being profitable makes no sense then they would stop making it altogether. Why do they still make it at all?
If it was about profit they could simply charge him more then the production cost, if he agreed to pay 2-5x above cost they make profit, he gets drug. Pure capitalism.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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But why can they not get a supply form Bayer, not being profitable makes no sense then they would stop making it altogether. Why do they still make it at all?
I am not sure they are making it any more, or they may only be able to supply WHO. These are some things that need clarification.
 

Learner1

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I still don't fully understand Suramin, but are there other countries in which Dr. Naviaux could buy it from or travel to and do the testing there? (Only if 100% legal of course and I am not sure how this all works).
Here is a Q&A from Dr. Naviaux on suramin from his autism trial with it. Q6-8 explain how it works.
 

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joshualevy

Senior Member
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But why can they not get a supply form Bayer, not being profitable makes no sense then they would stop making it altogether. Why do they still make it at all?
If it was about profit they could simply charge him more then the production cost, if he agreed to pay 2-5x above cost they make profit, he gets drug. Pure capitalism.

Three things (one in relation to the text above, two in relation to other postings here):

First, I read somewhere, that the CDC has a supply of the drug, which they will release to doctors who have patients who need it (ie. have sleeping sickness, and meet the other criteria). A course of this drug (not one dose, but all that a infected person needs), costs $27. So even if someone would need to pay double price for it, we are still talking about little money.

Second, a lot of people are mixing FDA regulations covering prescribing drugs off label, and running clinical trials. These are different activities and covered by different rules. Yes, if a drug is approved in the US a doctor can prescribe it "off label" for other diseases or symptoms. But that does not mean they can run a clinical trial with it. Clinical trials require approvals from IRBs (a review committee) and you can't just say "we're prescribing this off label". In this case, the drug is not approved in the US, a researcher would need to file an IND (request for FDA approval of use in research). A doctor can not just buy the drug in another country and bring it in him or her self. He or she would still not have approval to use it in a clinical trial. ("Off label" approval can not be used for clinical trials.) I don't remember if an IND is approved for a drug for one disease, means you can test it for other diseases, but I think the answer is no.

Third, some one said that a phase-III trial would cost $20 million, and the drug was too cheap to pay back that cost. This is not how it works. First of all, no one starts out with a phase-III trial. You start out with a phase-I trial. For a drug like this one (dirt cheap and well understood), it would take much less than a million US $. I've heard of researchers doing this kind of small phase-I trial with overhead money they had in their lab already. Good results from a phase-I make it easier to raise money for a phase-II, and so on.

Remember that the drug is not approved in the US right now. So that means that if there was a successful phase-III study, they could set the price at any level they wanted. The fact that it is very cheap to produce means that they could earn a huge windfall. I think people are mixing up drugs that are available in the US, with those that are not. Sure, if a drug is already available in the US, then if it is cheap, that cuts into profits. But this drug is not available, so if it was found to cure (or even treat) ME/CFS, that cheapness would just turn into a huge profit margin.

Based on all this, I don't understand why Bayer would not provide the drug to a ME/CFS researcher in the US. It just doesn't make any sense.
 

AshleyHalcyoneH

Open Medicine Foundation
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I'm correct in understanding that the presentations will be available on You Tube in due course?

Ooops I have now read the whole thread and see that they are. Excellent!
The livestream will be available on stanford youtube until September. Stanford will take it down when they send me the recorded version. I will be editing it for everyone (dividing it up by speaker) and it will be on OMF's youtube and also dVD
 

Learner1

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Suramin offers promise, but its more than suramin. I had a detailed chat with Dr. Naviaux and he emphasized it was getting all the processes in the winter metabolism to spring/summer metabolism and then doing something like suramin.

This is from the abstract of his CDR paper:
The cell danger response (CDR) is the evolutionarily conserved metabolic response that protects cells and hosts from harm. It is triggered by encounters with chemical, physical, or biological threats that exceed the cellular capacity for homeostasis. The resulting metabolic mismatch between available resources and functional capacity
produces a cascade of changes in cellular electron flow, oxygen consumption, redox, membrane fluidity, lipid dynamics, bioenergetics, carbon and sulfur resource allocation, protein folding and aggregation, vitamin availability, metal homeostasis, indole, pterin, 1-carbon and polyamine metabolism, and polymer formation. The first wave of danger signals consists of the release of metabolic intermediates like ATP and ADP, Krebs cycle intermediates, oxygen, and reactive oxygen species (ROS), and is sustained by purinergic signaling. After the danger has been eliminated or neutralized, a choreographed sequence of anti-inflammatory and regenerative pathways is activated to reverse the CDR and to heal. When the CDR persists abnormally, whole body metabolism and the gut microbiome are disturbed, the collective performance of multiple organ systems is impaired, behavior is changed, and chronic disease results.

This is what we need to work on. It's not one magic bullet, unfortunately.

As for suramin, he said it's very cheap, so if there's a manufacturer who will make it, we'd need to get it. Didn't Congress just pass a law this week - the Right to Try Law? Wonder if it could be used for us...
 

lilpink

Senior Member
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I had the impression that it was an financial decision for Bayor too. Apparently Suramin is easy to make and cheap--little profit, especially since they can't sell in the US and probably a number of other countries.

In the same way other drugs that have passed the phase of protected manufacture are made by generic drug companies surely this drug could be manufactured in the same way? Have I missed something..does Bayer still hold some sort of copyright/ licence?

I appreciate this doesn't get around the issue about approval from different countries, FDA etc.... that's a whole other thing...
 
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