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Community symposium on molecular basis of ME/CFS at Stanford Discussion Thread

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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19,935
Location
Albuquerque
At this stage individuals do not know that they have this specific metabolic problem i.e. switch to using amino acids, rather than glucose, for cellular energy (ATP) production.
We can get a clue from looking at our Krebs cycle which, for most of us, will show a break. This break could well mean that our metabolism has switched to another means of producing energy.
If we showed obviously diminished NAD, the theory that we can't make kynurenine would be supported.
I was tested for NAD and was very low--but N = 1.
 
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54
Question about the Nanoneedle Biosensor:

Can someone help me understand, at least in basic terms, why electrical impedance of a cell is a useful metric?
 

Binkie4

Senior Member
Messages
644
@BenH @JanetDafoe

Is it ok to post the Stanford utube on other sites? I tried the link and was straight on without signing in but I was signed in and listening to Saturday. So fascinating and thank you again.

@Ben H @janet Dafoe (Rose49)
 

keepontruckin

Senior Member
Messages
214
I do not recall Dr. Ron Davis and Company talking about multiple chemical sensitivity in relation to the science of cfs. I am wondering if anyone knows whether he think it can be corrected via their research or if it is a whole other issue that is not related?
 
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Fantastic. I hope someone will create a time index so we can zoom in and review specific presentations. I jumped around quite a bit, and it was all just fascinating.

I only thought of noting the time index when I was watching the metabolic trap presentation. If it helps anyone, here are the timestamps for that:

IDO metabolic trap:
intro 6:42:44
details 6:48:36

chart of IDO2 mutations 6:52:58
upload_2018-10-1_21-50-48.png
 
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Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
Question about the Nanoneedle Biosensor:

Can someone help me understand, at least in basic terms, why electrical impedance of a cell is a useful metric?

Scientists have observed that the electrical impedance of cells tells you something about the health or activity of those cells. For example: benign and malignant tumours may have different impedance. (paper from 1926!). Also when you hit tumour cells with chemotherapy drugs, the impedance goes up. Impedance also changes with cellular age.

So what measuring impedance does is prove *****something***** is up. By the timing of the changes in this next graph, we can guess it is probably related to cellular energy needs. It doesn't say what has gone wrong. But it doesn't necessarily have to to help find a cure.

Screen Shot 2018-09-30 at 8.37.33 AM.png


If you run the same experiment and chuck a drug in there and observe that the impedance is normal now, then you may have discovered a drug that could help patients, even if you don't know why. They have already begun this process and already found at least one candidate drug that works. (I believe I heard that it is suramin. I also heard that some people then tried taking suramin and it didn't help them!)
 
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73
I guess the most obvious way to attempt to upregulate IDO1 (i.e., increase its gene expression) and break the hypothetical metabolic trap proposed by Prof Phair would be to use intravenous interferon gamma (IFNγ). This seems likely to cause a person to feel much worse initially before they feel better, though.

I'd be curious to know if the effect of IFNγ in Ron Davis's nanoneedle device has been looked at?

Yes, thanks for your remark. I’ve also had an eye on IFNγ for a long time. Oddly enough I seem to feel better when inflammation is increased.
Too bad it’s so terribly expensive and you need a prescription, otherwise I would’ve already given it a try.
 
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So what measuring impedance does is prove *****something***** is up. By the timing of the changes in this next graph, we can guess it is probably related to cellular energy needs. It doesn't say what has gone wrong. But it doesn't necessarily have to to help find a cure.

But how do they know whether this graph is specific to CFS? I mean, in the graph it says they have checked this against healthy controls, but have they also checked it against people with other diseases, to see if they don't show the same pattern? Otherwise you might get a lot of false positives (although I guess this is less of an issue than false negatives).
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
Yes, thanks for your remark. I’ve also had an eye on IFNγ for a long time. Oddly enough I seem to feel better when inflammation is increased.
It's very counterintuitive, that's for sure. Interestingly, if Phair's metabolic trap idea is correct, and that's still a big If, then Ampligen’s apparently helpful mode of action in ME/CFS, as an interferon inducer, would presumably turn out to be via upregulation of IDO1.
 

Neunistiva

Senior Member
Messages
442
But how do they know whether this graph is specific to CFS? I mean, in the graph it says they have checked this against healthy controls, but have they also checked it against people with other diseases, to see if they don't show the same pattern?

Right now the importance of the impedance graph is that it is a way to prove ME/CFS patients are physically sick. To make it into a biomarker, you are right, it does need to be checked against other diseases. That costs a lot of money. Please donate to OMF.
 
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@alex3619 @Neunistiva Thanks for the explanation. I have another question: I've been diagnosed with CFS/ME in the Netherlands by a center that specializes in this disease, by doing an exercise test. This showed that I had extremely high lactate values in my blood after exercise and it showed that my oxygen extraction was significantly lower than from healthy individuals. So can't this test already be used to show that something is wrong?

This is the website of that center by the way: https://www.cvsmemc.nl/
 

FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
Let me explain:

Trp is one way to make Kynurenine which is one way to make NAD. The metabolic trap hypothesis says we're not making kynurenine from Trp. So you might also expect low NAD (nicotinamide).

But instead the results on NAD are unclear. If we showed obviously diminished NAD, the theory that we can't make kynurenine would be supported. We don't show obviously diminished NAD, so the theory we can't make kynurenine is neither supported nor refuted.

(From Ben's comment above, it seems like Phair thinks maybe we can make nictotinamide from dietary niacin, so that could be an alternative pathway.)

I didn't see a role for Phenylalanine in the metabolic trap hypothesis. Can you explain?

First of all thanks for your reply. I've watched Phair's presentation and Ron's concluding remarks. I'll need to watch it again and a transcript might help.

I'm not confident that I know anything about ME/CFS now.

These papers indicate that intracellular phenylalanine levels (in blood cells) can be used to diagnose ME/CFS:
1) abstract: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/an/c8an01437j/unauth#!divAbstract;
2) full paper: https://sci-hub.se/10.1039/C8AN01437J.
The intracellular levels of phenylalanine were increased in (blood cells in) people with ME/CFS. The method is based on Raman spectroscopy.

Chris Armstrong found that the levels of phenylalanine were reduced in blood plasma [https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu....g Metabolomics CFS.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y]. Chris proposed that there was a switch from using glucose to amino acids (such as phenylalanine) for cellular energy/ATP production; hence the lower levels in the blood plasma.
Fluge and Mella also proposed that there was a switch to using amino acids (including phenylalanine and tryptophan) for energy production [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5161229/].

As you pointed out the unique thing about tryptophan is that the enzyme which metabolises it at lower levels [IDO1] is substrate inhibited i.e. at higher tryptophan levels it ceases to work. As you also point out, phenylalanine doesn't have a substrate inhibited enzyme; therefore, it cannot cause a trap.

Possibly the above method, i.e. Raman spectroscopy, could be used to see if intracellular tryptophan levels are increased in ME/CFS - Phair's theory. I think Ron Davis/Phair point out that the levels of tryptophan are normally very low; so it may not be possible to measure intracellular tryptophan levels using Raman spectroscopy.

Possibly the high intracellular levels of phenylalanine in ME/CFS, and very low levels in blood plasma, indicate that these amino acids (including tryptophan) are being concentrated in the cell - i.e. as an energy source in ME/CFS [Armstrong, Fluge and Mella ]. Accumulating tryptophan, beyond the levels at which IDO1 functions, would set the trap.

All conjecture; measuring intracellular tryptophan levels would seem to be the way forward. Maybe that would be possible with Raman spectroscopy.

One thing Ron said i.e. that this may be a common path to autoimmunity [low kynurenine?]; therefore there may be funding for ME/CFS research. Also, I seem to recall that ME/CFS was used as a control group in Gulf War Syndrome and Lyme; maybe this will also help to get funding for ME/CFS research.

Thanks again for your comments.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
@alex3619 @Neunistiva Thanks for the explanation. I have another question: I've been diagnosed with CFS/ME in the Netherlands by a center that specializes in this disease, by doing an exercise test. This showed that I had extremely high lactate values in my blood after exercise and it showed that my oxygen extraction was significantly lower than from healthy individuals. So can't this test already be used to show that something is wrong?

This is the website of that center by the way: https://www.cvsmemc.nl/

Yes, cardiopulmonary exercise testing is used as proof of disability but there are drawbacks. It can cause the patient to crash and there are severe bedbound ME/CFS patients who can't even get to the clinic, much less take an exercise test. So having a blood test would be an incredibly useful thing since it would allow quick and easy diagnosis.
 

Hopeful1976

Senior Member
Messages
345
I have just watched Ron talk and I was riveted throughout. Ron, you are an amazing man. I feel completely indebted to you. The work you are doing for so many people around the world is so humbling. To me you are an angel. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.