Cold showers !

[Nord Wolf]

OK, did we really need to know that though ?

Ha, well if we are going to share and talk about such methods, details are important.

But jokes aside: how do you not catch a cold if naked in the snow for full minutes ? I know you can only catch a cold by catching a virus - and usually compromising your defenses by being in cold or wet conditions etc... will make that more probable. But it seems counter-intuitive to think: naked in the snow for a stretch, and no catching a cold. Have you ever while doing this ?

I do specific breathing exercises for 45 minutes before snow laying to prime my body. Then immediately before, and for the duration of the snow lay, I do mind over body meditations. The breathing and meditations I’ve been doing for 35 years now.

Anyway, both together keeps the body in a state that prevents the core temp from dropping. Only the surface layers of the body are directly affected by the cold. After the snow lay I drink warm tea and dress warm, but I don’t get “cold” when snow laying because of the primer practices.

To answer your other question, no I’ve never gotten ill by doing cold exposure. I never do it if I am experiencing PEM, feel run down, or am particularly tired or worn feeling. I never push the time either. Cold exposure isn’t for everyday, nor if someone is feeling rundown.

Personally I don’t feel just anyone should attempt real cold exposure without first learning breathing exercises and meditations. Quick showers, OK, but something like ice baths or snow laying… you go to a whole other level.

For me there are many days that if I don’t do it after getting out of bed and having done the 45 minutes of breathing, I can get body anxiety. But then if I do cold exposure my body settles and my mind recalibrates. But if I'm feeling too low, then my body doesn't crave or miss cold exposure at all.

 

[Husband of]

Garmin watch/app, yes.
(But not all garmin watches have it)

My phone thinks it's Harmon not garmin, surely it knows best

 

[Jo86]

I do specific breathing exercises for 45 minutes before snow laying to prime my body.

very insightful post, and thx for the detailed response. Made an interesting start to my day.

One more thing: do you ever feel TOO relaxed after such an intense challenge for the body ? Like even with just the cold showers in my shower cabin, that calming/soothing effect can be a bit much during the rest of the day, like I'm TOO relaxed which is nice as the random palpitations or inexplicable spurts of anxiety that come out of nowhere are no longer there, but at the same time I'm so relaxed it doesn't improve my social interactions at all or my overall activity during the day. Maybe because it's so new ? (third day here) In fact I'm thinking of switching to doing the showers around 10pm before bed so I shake my body up and then feel the calm after the storm, like sleep therapy. But then again it's so nice to do it right during the day after a workout and feel that surge, then go lay out in the sun to warm up.

 

[ruben]

I may have mentioned this in the past on PR. One thing that I have found very invigorating with this condition was if I went holiday and went in the sea!! Holidays believe you me in the heat were at times quite a struggle but being in the ocean did make me feel alive. It was a very temporary boost though.

 

[Jo86]

I may have mentioned this in the past on PR. One thing that I have found very invigorating with this condition was if I went holiday and went in the sea!! Holidays believe you me in the heat were at times quite a struggle but being in the ocean did make me feel alive. It was a very temporary boost though.

could you expand on the details of exactly how you felt ? Better how ?

 

[ChrisD]

I've been doing Cold showers for about 6 years. Got M.E. In 2016, and started in 2017.

The reason I continue to Do it is because it does help as a painkiller, a fog clearer, and general wake up helper. But it's by no means curative or near putting me into remission. For example on a daily basis of takes me from about 3% function to 5% and that's worth the difference when you're that bad.

 

[ruben]

could you expand on the details of exactly how you felt ? Better how ?

As I said in post I'd feel "invigorated, alive". That was when I was in the ocean. But that wasn't maintained. Holidays could be a big struggle in the heat of Greece or southern France in the summer. If I wasn't in the sea I'd certainly want to be in the shade whenever I could. If I had spent my adult life though waiting to be healthy, I would never have been anywhere. Imagine if someone who was healthy booked up a holiday in the winter months and then they came down to my level, they almost certainly wouldn't travel that summer. But if I had just waited and waited in my life to be healthy then I'd never have gone anywhere!!

 

[Nord Wolf]

very insightful post, and thx for the detailed response. Made an interesting start to my day.

No problem. I like detail, especially when dealing with such bizarre health conditions we all seem to have. I track so much through testing, charting, logging, etc. I think it is the only hope we have of figuring any of this out.

One more thing: do you ever feel TOO relaxed after such an intense challenge for the body ? Like even with just the cold showers in my shower cabin, that calming/soothing effect can be a bit much during the rest of the day, like I'm TOO relaxed which is nice as the random palpitations or inexplicable spurts of anxiety that come out of nowhere are no longer there, but at the same time I'm so relaxed it doesn't improve my social interactions at all or my overall activity during the day. Maybe because it's so new ? (third day here) In fact I'm thinking of switching to doing the showers around 10pm before bed so I shake my body up and then feel the calm after the storm, like sleep therapy. But then again it's so nice to do it right during the day after a workout and feel that surge, then go lay out in the sun to warm up.

Too relaxed - not from cold exposure. For me it act the opposite by instigating the sympathetic nervous system. It increases dopamine production in the brain. Also proper cold exposure turns down the adaptive immune system, thus increasing white blood cells and lowering inflammation - this in-turn increases over all immunity and strengthens the first line of defense - the innate immune system which fights pathogens.

So for me cold exposure invigorates and energizes rather than relaxing me too much. I have many breathing exercises and meditations to calm me, lower my blood pressure and heart rate.

It is interesting that it relaxes you so much. What temp are you using and for how long? Also do you start with arms and legs and then move to the body, or just jump right in? Each methods creates a different movement in the blood transfer.

As to sunbathing… here in he Northern New England mountains, we are still two full months away from being able to do that! And how my body misses it!

 

[Jo86]

But if I had just waited and waited in my life to be healthy then I'd never have gone anywhere!!

dishing out the deep life lessons on a thread that says "cold showers" with an exclamation mark at the end.
Well done.

 

[Jo86]

It is interesting that it relaxes you so much. What temp are you using and for how long? Also do you start with arms and legs and then move to the body, or just jump right in? Each methods creates a different movement in the blood transfer.

I got my thermometer from amazon earlier today, and the water is at about 12°C, so 53°F.
I stay in there about 5-7 min at the lowest temperature.

As to sunbathing… here in he Northern New England mountains, we are still two full months away from being able to do that! And how my body misses it!

Well, I don't know what's worse: having to deal with the people of southeast France all year, or not having sun for 9 months. Unless ppl in New Hampshire are generally jerks too.

 

[Nord Wolf]

I got my thermometer from amazon earlier today, and the water is at about 12°C, so 53°F.
I stay in there about 5-7 min at the lowest temperature.

That is a lot. I stick to 59 F (15 C) as the lowest in the shower and only hold for 3 minutes. Research shows that 11-12 minutes a week in water temps of 59-64 F (15 17.78 C) is all we need to gain the health benefits. Anything lower or more is personal preference. 53 F (12 C) for 5-7 - good for you! Since autumn and winter I am bed or couch bound an average of 85% of the time, I don't want to go over my 2-3 minutes at 59-64 F. I actually find my snow laying to be enjoyable than the cold shower. But in summer of course the cold shower seems easier and more enjoyable, and there is no snow to lay in...

Well, I don't know what's worse: having to deal with the people of southeast France all year, or not having sun for 9 months. Unless ppl in New Hampshire are generally jerks too.

Ha, my personal experience shows me that people are generally jerks anywhere! There are of course many exceptions, but in general, people tend to suck. It ain't just France! But no good sun exposure from mid September through the end of April is hard with dysautonomia and neuroimmune conditions.

 

[eric_gladiator]

There was a time when I felt the need to shower in cold water since showering in very hot water as I like made me have night sweats all night, on the other hand, cold water suited me very well. Now lately I have not been able to, I have a nasal congestion that I can't get rid of and I am afraid of getting sicker if I do so

 

[Nord Wolf]

Now lately I have not been able to, I have a nasal congestion that I can't get rid of and I am afraid of getting sicker if I do so

Probably a smart move. I never use cold exposure when my system is rundown, struggling with PEM, or under some other energy sapping stressor.

 

[Nord Wolf]

In the first image here you can see my stress levels were quite high. The first very small blue line section was rinsing my face in cold water, which dropped the stress level briefly. The second blue line section, a 10 minute section, was when I was laying in the snow. The slow drop in stress prior was when I was sitting in a chair clothed outside to acclimate. Then I undressed, laid in the snow for 10 minutes and you can see what that does for my stress levels. Then when I stood back up after 10 minutes you can see the stress level rise slightly again due to the PoTS.

This first BP reading was prior to going outside in the snow. You can see everything is quite high.

This was taken directly after laying in the snow nude for 10 minutes. You can see a huge difference:

 

[Jo86]

.

Interesting post, however pardon my ignorance on the topic, but doesn't cold temperature make one MORE "stressed" ? As in it activates the sympathetic nervous system and epinephrine and all that, but that the reward is we'll feel more alert for a while and later feel a calm ?

And on another note, I'm going to give the cold showers a break. They might be stimulating me too much, to the point it's great to do when I know I'll have very limited interaction all day but if I need to go out into the world, I think it relaxes me too much. I've been having even more slurred speech than usual lately, more difficulty "activating" the brain, not that cold showers are entirely responsible but I've been on them the past 2 weeks coincidentally.
At worst, I might have to do them at night when all interactions are done with, sth akin to sleep therapy.

 

[Nord Wolf]

Interesting post, however pardon my ignorance on the topic, but doesn't cold temperature make one MORE "stressed" ? As in it activates the sympathetic nervous system and epinephrine and all that, but that the reward is we'll feel more alert for a while and later feel a calm ?

If you jump right in without acclimating, yes then a cold shock will skyrocket blood pressure and increase body stress as it activates fight or flight. This is why taking the time to acclimate first is so important. It diffuses the body shock while still activating the sympathetic, slowly. The slow activation of the sympathetic stimulates dopamine production, white blood cell, and HGH production without degrading the nervous system. After the cold exposure is over the body kicks up the circulation throughout. But if you jump right into the cold without proper acclimation, then it can cause severe body stress which isn't healthy. My practice has always been that if I can lay down in the snow nude and it isn't a shock, then I've properly acclimated. Same with a cold shower. I slowwwwwwly turn down the temp, aiming the water at my legs, slowly working up to my hips, then my arms, abdomen, chest and finally back. By that time the cold water is not a shock. That acclimation time isn't just for the body, but also allows time for the brain to gain control over the body = mind over body.

And on another note, I'm going to give the cold showers a break.

We need to listen to the body, so do what it calls for.

but if I need to go out into the world

Glad you can still get out in the world and interact!! That in itself is something

 

[Jo86]

Glad you can still get out in the world and interact!! That in itself is something

Wellllllllll not a whole lot of that. The greatest symptom for me has always been brain fog. It's like my focus is decreased tenfold, a hundredfold. It's excruciatingly difficult to just talk to someone I'm not very close to these days. I'll go to some cardio gym session every week (squats, landing hits on a punching ball etc) and last the hour, so my body can somehow still tolerate that, but it'll be incredibly hard to just be a regular social animal in that context.

Anyways back to cold showers: I do the same as you, I'll gradually turn the temperature down in the shower til I reach about 59°F (I only did the 53 twice at the start...a bit too cold to do daily !). I just think the relaxing effect is a tad too powerful after the cold shower and I'd rather be a bit more stressed but alert and susceptible to my brain activating faster. I think I'll do them at night like I said and come back here to post about that.

 

[Nord Wolf]

Wellllllllll not a whole lot of that. The greatest symptom for me has always been brain fog. It's like my focus is decreased tenfold, a hundredfold. It's excruciatingly difficult to just talk to someone I'm not very close to these days. I'll go to some cardio gym session every week (squats, landing hits on a punching ball etc) and last the hour, so my body can somehow still tolerate that, but it'll be incredibly hard to just be a regular social animal in that context.

Got it. At the very east you can still go to the gym. My squat challenge is getting on and off the couch, or in and out of bed without falling over and my heart rate shooting up to 180 BPM!

Here is another shot at solid data showing my stress level before and during laying in the snow, and the blood pressure before, and then just after laying in the snow for 10 minutes. (taken yesterday)

After laying in the snow:

And I will say that I enjoy snow laying in winter far better than cold showering. Cold showers in the warm season I do fine with, but in winter I much prefer laying in the snow. Part of it is I'm outside, and I've always been an outdoor person. Another part is in the snow I'm laying down, as opposed to standing or sitting in the cold shower. I don't do well anymore in upright positions.

 

[Jo86]

I still do the cold showers daily, but I read about going from cold to hot, back to cold, and switching back and forth was good for muscle recovery (like after a workout, or any form of exercise). It helps me feel more relaxed, and it's not actually difficult to do. You'd think going from hot to cold again might be unbearable, but it's actually easy.

The thing I'm no longer feeling though is that little energy or freshness boost I got from cold showers those first couple of weeks. My body is now too acclimated and I'm guessing the adrenaline boost one gets from cold showers, is significantly reduced overtime. Surely if I stopped for a week then had a cold shower again, I'd feel a bit more of the effect.

 

[Jo86]

Just wanted to say: I actually noticed a difference from the cold shower today, from right before and after, in terms of stress.

I felt pretty stressed (a buildup through the day and a small dispute) and then decided to take the cold shower. I had a regular shower yesterday, so I felt this one a tad more. Had the shower (cold, then hot, then cold) and came out feeling more at ease, and like whatever feeling in my gut, that "chemical anxiety", was gone. Just a bit less weak and sensitive than 15min ago, with more of a feeling of warmth and stability inside. Heart steadier too (palpitations regularly start out of nowhere during the day).