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Learner1

Senior Member
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Pacific Northwest
@gregh286 Thanks for posting. The second link, the review, was incredibly helpful.

I found this discussion intriguing because I recently did metabolic testing, which consisted of wearing a mask that captured all of my exhaled metabolites throughout the 55-minute test. The test itself consisted of laying on a table for 20 minutes to get used to the mask and to measure my metabolites at baseline, and then a treadmill test, done at a slow pace, with gradient increasing every 2 minutes until failure.

As discussed in the Lumen review, my RER was measured, and whether I was burning carbohydrates or fat throughout each segment of the test was captured.

I did the test because though I have been able to improve my ability to exercise, I'm intolerant of aerobic exercise or increased intensity of activity. The test seemed to conclude that I am blowing through my glycogen stores too fast, as my body wants to burn glucose and not fat.

I spoke with two experts after the test, and both said that my results were very abnormal, when compared to most people who take the test who seemed to fall into two categories, either athletes as described in the Lumen literature or people who have problems with obesity and blood sugar control.

They were puzzled by my results, in that I fall into neither category, and they said my results looked most like people who are on high carb diets. The problem is that I've been on a lowish carb diet, at about 130 g of carbohydrates a day for quite a while, and I've even tried a ketogenic diet. But my body does not seem to want to burn fat, which seems to be a big problem and I am looking for answers for how to kick it into gear to do so.

One expert suggested upping my carb intake which might help the problem I'm running through glycogen stores too fast, but I don't think it would help my body learn to burn fat any better. The second expert suggested adding exogenous ketones and MCT oil and see if that helped.

I've been in the process of moving since the test, so I haven't fully tested either in a good testing situation as my schedule and activities have been variable and diet has been what I could grab, so once things calm down, I plan to experiment a little more.

I'm not sure whether it would be worthwhile in my situation to buy a Lumen. I'm not sure what breathing into it would show in a relation to my situation, and whether their advice to go low-carb or high would be valid for me.

I'm more interested in why my body has decided to burn glucose preferentially, And why it does not want to burn fat, even though I feel I'm functioning best on a diet that's about 50% fat, 25% protein, and 25% carbs. This seems to be a mitochondrial thing, and I'm very open to anyone's thoughts on what to do next.
 

out2lunch

Senior Member
Messages
204
@gregh286
I found this discussion intriguing because I recently did metabolic testing, which consisted of wearing a mask that captured all of my exhaled metabolites throughout the 55-minute test. The test itself consisted of laying on a table for 20 minutes to get used to the mask and to measure my metabolites at baseline, and then a treadmill test, done at a slow pace, with gradient increasing every 2 minutes until failure.

As discussed in the Lumen review, my RER was measured, and whether I was burning carbohydrates or fat throughout each segment of the test was captured.

I did the test because though I have been able to improve my ability to exercise, I'm intolerant of aerobic exercise or increased intensity of activity. The test seemed to conclude that I am blowing through my glycogen stores too fast, as my body wants to burn glucose and not fat.

I did the CPET test at the Pacific Fatigue Laboratory (now Workwell) over a decade ago, and my aerobic metabolism is gone. My anaerobic threshold sits at 93 bpm; it takes very little exertion for my body to drop into anaerobic mode. Which I believe will make the Lumen device virtually worthless for measuring ketosis unless I sit on the couch all day long.

I spoke with two experts after the test, and both said that my results were very abnormal, when compared to most people who take the test who seemed to fall into two categories, either athletes as described in the Lumen literature or people who have problems with obesity and blood sugar control.

They were puzzled by my results, in that I fall into neither category, and they said my results looked most like people who are on high carb diets. The problem is that I've been on a lowish carb diet, at about 130 g of carbohydrates a day for quite a while, and I've even tried a ketogenic diet. But my body does not seem to want to burn fat, which seems to be a big problem and I am looking for answers for how to kick it into gear to do so.

Truthfully, I wouldn't call 130g of carbs each day, "a lowish carb diet." I've kept my daily carb limit under 100g because I never eat more than 30g to 40g at a time and never unopposed, even when I'm not dieting. Otherwise, I get reactive hypoglycemia from a pancreas that overproduces insulin from eating high carbs, a problem that runs in both of my families that I've had since my teens. And if I eat more than 40g of carbs a day, I'm out of ketosis.

In order to lose adipose fat, I have to keep my daily carbs under 40g, even just to lose one pound a week. Some individuals simply can't get their metabolisms to switch into fat burning mode without doing the old Atkins diet or what was known as the carbohydrate addict's diet where you only ate carbs during one meal, once a day. And for those of us who've lost our aerobic metabolisms, I believe it's even more difficult.

One expert suggested upping my carb intake which might help the problem I'm running through glycogen stores too fast, but I don't think it would help my body learn to burn fat any better. The second expert suggested adding exogenous ketones and MCT oil and see if that helped.

I use BHB before doing any type of physical activity, such as gardening or housework or going for a slow walk outdoors. It definitely helps with my energy, as long as I'm already in ketosis, even at a low level where my urine strip is barely turning a light pink. But if I'm not in ketosis when I use the BHB, I don't feel much difference using it. Which makes me suspect that my body will only use carbs if they're available, if that's been the primary source of energy for some time. I feel this also explains why many people who begin a keto diet don't see their urine strips change color for several days. Their bodies are slow to switch from carbs to fat.

I've been in the process of moving since the test, so I haven't fully tested either in a good testing situation as my schedule and activities have been variable and diet has been what I could grab, so once things calm down, I plan to experiment a little more.

Have you been able to repeat the test since your move? I'd be interested in your results while you're on a keto diet with several days of pink urine strips beforehand. I'm guessing your results wouldn't demonstrate any carb burning at all, which might be the best solution for you as it is for me.

I'm not sure whether it would be worthwhile in my situation to buy a Lumen. I'm not sure what breathing into it would show in a relation to my situation, and whether their advice to go low-carb or high would be valid for me.

FWIW, I've decided not to purchase the Lumen device because of my broken aerobic metabolism. I've already had blood work done that demonstrated elevated CO2 outside the normal range shortly after moderate physical exertion. Which begs the question as to what exactly the Lumen is measuring in someone like me? I think it's a safe bet that my low AT would skew the CO2 results during those times I'm up and about attempting to live a somewhat normal life. And given the current $300 price tag, I'll stick with my urine strips.

I'm more interested in why my body has decided to burn glucose preferentially, And why it does not want to burn fat, even though I feel I'm functioning best on a diet that's about 50% fat, 25% protein, and 25% carbs. This seems to be a mitochondrial thing, and I'm very open to anyone's thoughts on what to do next.

I have a suggestion on something to try, even though you'll probably not like it. Have you tried applying your diet ratio to a low calorie diet? I'm guessing your RER testing gave you a BMR value? I did an RER test many years ago, and was told my BMR is about 1200. Which makes sense, given how easily I can lose weight when I restrict my daily caloric intake to 1200. And the ratio I do best at consists of 300 cal protein, 200 cal carbs, and 700 cal fat. Which is pretty close to your preferred diet ratio.

I feel the best and lose weight the fastest on that diet. But I'm incredibly weak-willed when it comes to baking and eating desserts, even keto bake goods which are insanely high in calories. I can keep my carbs below 50g, but doing that with a low calorie diet is psychologically challenging. But if you're serious about finding what works best for you, I'd try modifying your caloric intake to match your BMR with your preferred protein/carb/fat ratio. You might discover a low calorie diet works best for you as it did for our ancestors who only ate one meal at the end of their hunting and gathering each day.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,311
Location
Pacific Northwest
Thank you for your thoughts. You bring up some interesting points.

Truthfully, I wouldn't call 130g of carbs each day, "a lowish carb diet." I've kept my daily carb limit under 100g because I never eat more than 30g to 40g at a time and never unopposed, even when I'm not dieting.
"The Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends that carbohydrates make up 45 to 65 percent of your total daily calories. So, if you get 2,000 calories a day, between 900 and 1,300 calories should be from carbohydrates. That translates to between 225 and 325 grams of carbohydrates a day."

From:
www.mayoclinic.org › art-20045705
Carbohydrates: How carbs fit into a healthy diet - Mayo Clinic

So, 100-130g a day is a lowish carb diet. I know a couple of women who screwed up their adrenals by being too low carb for an extended period. Too much stress is not good.
Otherwise, I get reactive hypoglycemia from a pancreas that overproduces insulin from eating high carbs, a problem that runs in both of my families that I've had since my teens. And if I eat more than 40g of carbs a day, I'm out of ketosis.

In order to lose adipose fat, I have to keep my daily carbs under 40g, even just to lose one pound a week. Some individuals simply can't get their metabolisms to switch into fat burning mode without doing the old Atkins diet or what was known as the carbohydrate addict's diet where you only ate carbs during one meal, once a day.
The issue has been to get mitochondria to burn fat, not necessarily to be on a "fat burning weight loss diet." Are they the same thing? I'm not so sure.

My glucose is typically 80-94. I haven't had any prediabetic symptoms or labs.

Additionally, I've had multiple symptoms from being deficient in various amino acids and have found I need to many amino acids to maintain ketosis. The pattern of aminos matched what Fluge and Mella found in their research on ME/CFS patients.

And for those of us who've lost our aerobic metabolisms, I believe it's even more difficult.
Well, that's what I'm trying to investigate. Did we lose our aerobic metabolisms? How do we know we did? What does one fo about it?
I use BHB before doing any type of physical activity, such as gardening or housework or going for a slow walk outdoors. It definitely helps with my energy, as long as I'm already in ketosis, even at a low level where my urine strip is barely turning a light pink. But if I'm not in ketosis when I use the BHB, I don't feel much difference using it. Which makes me suspect that my body will only use carbs if they're available, if that's been the primary source of energy for some time. I feel this also explains why many people who begin a keto diet don't see their urine strips change color for several days. Their bodies are slow to switch from carbs to fat.


Have you been able to repeat the test since your move? I'd be interested in your results while you're on a keto diet with several days of pink urine strips beforehand. I'm guessing your results wouldn't demonstrate any carb burning at all, which might be the best solution for you as it is for me.
FWIW, I've decided not to purchase the Lumen device because of my broken aerobic metabolism. I've already had blood work done that demonstrated elevated CO2 outside the normal range shortly after moderate physical exertion. Which begs the question as to what exactly the Lumen is measuring in someone like me? I think it's a safe bet that my low AT would skew the CO2 results during those times I'm up and about attempting to live a somewhat normal life. And given the current $300 price tag, I'll stick with my urine strips.
Again, I'm not sure ketosis is a realistic goal, given the quantity of amino acids I burn through...

But, I'm burning mainly glucose with physical exertion, and using aminos, at least partly, to make glutathione to deal with oxidative stress and using BCAAs in mitochondria.
I have a suggestion on something to try, even though you'll probably not like it. Have you tried applying your diet ratio to a low calorie diet? I'm guessing your RER testing gave you a BMR value? I did an RER test many years ago, and was told my BMR is about 1200. Which makes sense, given how easily I can lose weight when I restrict my daily caloric intake to 1200. And the ratio I do best at consists of 300 cal protein, 200 cal carbs, and 700 cal fat. Which is pretty close to your preferred diet ratio.

I feel the best and lose weight the fastest on that diet. But I'm incredibly weak-willed when it comes to baking and eating desserts, even keto bake goods which are insanely high in calories. I can keep my carbs below 50g, but doing that with a low calorie diet is psychologically challenging. But if you're serious about finding what works best for you, I'd try modifying your caloric intake to match your BMR with your preferred protein/carb/fat ratio. You might discover a low calorie diet works best for you as it did for our ancestors who only ate one meal at the end of their hunting and gathering each day.
The goal is to improve aerobic performance and ability to exercise, not to lose weight. My BMI is 22... Weight loss can cause catabolism of muscles which can harm athletic performance.

I'm not weak willed and don't bake, I have tried and am willing to try various diets. However 300 calories of protein divided by 4 calories per gram of protein is 75g of protein and I need between 95 and 120g if protein a day or I won't have adequate amino acids and risk breakdown of muscle.

My BMR is about 1410 calories and I eat about 1800 calories a day, which covers the activity I do over and above the BMR.

Starving one's body when it is sick is not wise, puts additional and unneeded stress on it. It's been far more useful to increase nutrients to support the demands of activity.

I think you've brought up some interesting questions, but I'm afraid the keto/Paleo theories aren't well matched to either ME/CFS patients or those with secondary mitochondrial dysfunction. I think I'm trying to understand the idiosyncrasies of what my mitos are doing and to solve that, enabling my activity to increase, and ideally, to improve athletic and aerobic performance by having mitochondria use beta oxidation rather than burning glucose.

It is good to hear your ideas, though. Thanks again....
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
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Location
Great Lakes
I'm more interested in why my body has decided to burn glucose preferentially,

@Learner1, I wonder if you have ever been tested for McArdle's Disease. @SmokinJoeFraz93 talks about that here.

I'm sorry. I don't know how one is tested but I just wondered in your case where you talked about your body preferring glucose for fuel and not knowing how to switch to fat burning.
 
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