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CFS/overtraining

Messages
21
What I did mostly for the first 6 months but also a bit for the first 2 years was to test my condition. I went out and run 5-10km. Just to see if I would get PEM. But actually even 15minutes would been too much. I got a few quite bad PEMs.

Don't be as stupid as I was. Avoid PEM at all cost.

Have you been tested for Mycoplasma? My sport doctor diagnosed mycoplasma for me but the antiobiotics did not help me.
 
Messages
71
Location
Camdrigeshire
Yes that's me ....I keep testing then resting. The only pain I have is the normal muscle pain after not running for 5 weeks and from my 1st gym session in years!!!

I feel ok at the moment but am really conscious of not overdoing it but still needing to see I I am actually ok or not after resting 5 weeks, which if it was OTS then I could be ok now!

Won't do to much though untill I next see the dr (just in case) and if it was OTS I need to be careful anyway and if it turns out as CFS then going sensible also makes sense.

I ran 4.71 miles 2 consecutive days and felt good. But rested the next followed by gym then rest and tomorrow gym again. But I'll take it easy.

Is PEMs post exercise muscle soreness? I should know but in not sure.

No that's the 1st I've heard of mycoplasma! I'll look it up......no the only symptom I have is sore throat and that's been on going for 9 months now. I'm impressed you got to see a sports dr .....nice 1

Thanks doublepush
 
Last edited:

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
Yes that's me ....I keep testing then resting. The only pain I have is the normal muscle pain after not running for 5 weeks and from my 1st gym session in years!!!

I feel ok at the moment but am really conscious of not overdoing it but still needing to see I I am actually ok or not after resting 5 weeks, which if it was OTS then I could be ok now!

Won't do to much though untill I next see the dr (just in case) and if it was OTS I need to be careful anyway and if it turns out as CFS then going sensible also makes sense.

I ran 4.71 miles 2 consecutive days and felt good. But rested the next followed by gym then rest and tomorrow gym again. But I'll take it easy.

Is PEMs post exercise muscle soreness? I should know but in not sure.

No that's the 1st I've heard of mycoplasma! I'll look it up.

Thanks doublepush

Just wondering do you guys monitor your heart rate while exercising and if so have you noticed a change ?
 
Messages
71
Location
Camdrigeshire
I did from time to time but I don't find it accurate enough as its affected by too many things.

However my max heart rate is 189 bpm which was flat out in a sports science lab test.

My 1st run Saturday at 7:49 mm pace (slow for me) was average 169 bpm and max 182 bpm the following day at 7:32mm (also slow but better) was average 161 max 178 bpm .......so I'd say that that's higher than normal but then I'd expect that after not running properly since April. So it's hard to say really.

But yes I was working harder than I should at that pace but I can't tell you more as I didn't run often with a heart rate monitor.
 
Messages
71
Location
Camdrigeshire
Just wondering do you guys monitor your heart rate while exercising and if so have you noticed a change ?
Yes that's me ....I keep testing then resting. The only pain I have is the normal muscle pain after not running for 5 weeks and from my 1st gym session in years!!!

I feel ok at the moment but am really conscious of not overdoing it but still needing to see I I am actually ok or not after resting 5 weeks, which if it was OTS then I could be ok now!

Won't do to much though untill I next see the dr (just in case) and if it was OTS I need to be careful anyway and if it turns out as CFS then going sensible also makes sense.

I ran 4.71 miles 2 consecutive days and felt good. But rested the next followed by gym then rest and tomorrow gym again. But I'll take it easy.

Is PEMs post exercise muscle soreness? I should know but in not sure.

No that's the 1st I've heard of mycoplasma! I'll look it up......no the only symptom I have is sore throat and that's been on going for 9 months now. I'm impressed you got to see a sports dr .....nice 1

Thanks doublepush
 
Messages
71
Location
Camdrigeshire


I just looked at PEMs and it suggested that we get fatigued we drop off the exercise so lose condition. Therefore when we try again we are quicker to fatigue!

However in CFS patients asked to do the same activity 2 days running the results get worse and in nine CFS patients they normally improved.

I ran the same course same conditions two days running and improved! So maybe for me that's a good sign?

I've posted the article below if interested..........
*****************
Post-exertional malaise (PEM) is one symptom of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), but is itself more complex than a single symptom. Patients experience fatigue, pain, cognitive difficulties, sore throat, and/or swollen lymph nodes after previously tolerated physical or mental activity. These symptoms may appear immediately after the activity or after a period of delay, and may last days or weeks. This article, the third in a four-part series, examines what mechanisms may cause PEM.

What is not the cause?

As discussed in Part 2 of this series [1], PEM is a self-reported symptom without a clinical test to easily measure its occurrence and severity. Understandably, patients do not want to exacerbate PEM, and many reduce their activity levels or avoid certain activities altogether. This is a predictable response to PEM, but the pattern lends itself to theories that phobias or deconditioning actually cause PEM, or even CFS itself. Such theories, however, are not supported by research data.

Kinesiophobia, is defined as “an excessive, irrational, and debilitating fear of physical movement and activity resulting from a feeling of vulnerability to painful injury or reinjury [2].” One theory claims that CFS patients avoid activity or exercise as a result of irrational fears. These fears can be objectively measured using the Tampa Scale for Kinesiophobia, originally developed and validated for use in patients with lower back pain. Researchers have adapted the Tampa Scale for use in people with CFS (PWCs), and some PWCs do appear to have a high level of kinesiophobia [3].

If kinesiophobia causes PEM or CFS, then one would expect patients with higher Tampa scores to be more disabled, have lower exercise capacity, and have more anxiety associated with exercise. While patients with kinesiophobia do report more activity limitations [4], the other hypotheses are not supported by the data. High Tampa scores do not correlate with higher measures of disability, higher levels of exercise-related anxiety, or lower measures of exercise capacity. Even a study that proposed a cognitive-behavioral model for CFS admitted, “no evidence of exercise phobia was found” in subjects with CFS [5].

Physical deconditioning is the loss of fitness caused by a reduction in activity. By definition, CFS is an illness that substantially reduces the physical activity of the patient for a minimum of six months, and so every PWC experiences at least some deconditioning. One proposed explanation for CFS is that it is a self-perpetuating cycle of activity avoidance leading to further deconditioning, which in turn reduces the amount of activity that can be comfortably tolerated. The only way to test this theory is to compare CFS patients with sedentary, deconditioned controls. If poor fitness perpetuates CFS, then patients should exhibit more severe deconditioning than the controls. However, a study designed to test this hypotheses showed the opposite: there was no statistically significant difference in physical fitness between CFS patients and sedentary controls, based on several measures of exercise capacity [6].

Another study used exercise tests on two consecutive days to examine the performance of patients and controls, and found a sharp decrease in performance by the CFS patients in the second test while controls showed no such decrease [7]. The authors stated, “The profound reduction in physical activity that accompanies CFS symptoms certainly results in deconditioning. In isolation, the similarity of results between patients and controls for the first test in this study do not contradict a deconditioning hypothesis for CFS performance. However, the fall in oxygen consumption among CFS patients on the second test appears to suggest metabolic dysfunction rather than a sedentary lifestyle as the cause of diminished exercise capacity in CFS.” This conclusion underscores the need for the use of the test-retest study design in order to reveal an accurate picture of CFS-related impairments.

So what might cause PEM in reaction to activity?

It is now generally accepted that CFS involves disruptions and disturbances of multiple body systems. Research on the physiological responses to exercise in CFS patients supports this principle, with demonstrated abnormalities in the central nervous system, cardiovascular and energy metabolism system, and immune system [8].

  1. Central nervous system – When CFS patients and sedentary controls are asked to rate their perceived level of effort during an exercise test, PWCs perceive a higher level of exertion than controls [9]. This is true even when heart rate and other measures between the groups are similar, and suggests impairment of the mechanism that contributes to effort sense. Studies that demonstrate exercise lowers the pain threshold in CFS patients also suggest abnormalities in central pain processing [10].
  2. Cardiovascular/Energy system – Studies have found that peak oxygen consumption and maximum capacity for oxygen consumption are lower in CFS patients than controls [11,12,13]. Patients have difficulty achieving their predicted target heart rate, and their maximum workload at exhaustion is substantially lower than controls. The average level of maximum oxygen consumption in patients was similar to patients with chronic heart failure and other conditions [14]. Research has also suggested that muscle energy metabolism is impaired, as evidenced by higher levels of lactate and other measures of oxidative stress [15].
  3. Immune system – Research provides evidence for associations between measures of intracellular immune deregulations and exercise performance in CFS patients [16] A 20-minute bicycle ride caused increases in the levels of the immune protein C4a in CFS patients (but not controls), and the increase was significantly correlated with the severity of post-exercise symptom flare. C4a increases in healthy athletes as well, but after intense exercise such as a 2.5 hour run [17]. A high symptom flare after exercise in CFS patients correlated with elevated levels of six immune cytokines; neither controls nor patients with lower levels of symptom flares showed the same cytokine activity [18].
Conclusion

Some CFS patients do have kinesiophobia, and many are likely deconditioned. But neither factor explains PWCs’ physiological response to exercise. In contrast, multiple abnormalities have been detected in the systems involved in the body’s response to physical activity. What do these many observed abnormalities really mean? Are they (in sum or in part) the cause of PEM, or merely the observable effects of some other process?

Davenport and colleagues suggest an integrative conceptual model in which “a spectrum of aerobic energy system impairments may be responsible for the reduced tolerance of physical activity [19].” Any theory of the cause of PEM must take into account the multiple genetic, cellular and systemic abnormalities that are associated with the PWC physiological response to exercise. It is probable that maladaptive responses in one or more body processes leads to the reduced tolerance of physical activity and cascade of symptoms associated with PEM.
 

Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
I just can't understand why the dr won't look down the sports route. I've asked to see a sports specialist dr. I'm not holding my breath but I'll keep asking.

Surely in my case (and many others) it's more likely to be sports related than CFS related?
It's a little hard to understand what you mean by this and what you think the sports specialist will be able to tell you that a non-sports specialist won't. I was put in touch with one of the top sports specialists in the country and he concluded that I had ME/CFS, but had no advice to give me except what I had received elsewhere.

The important thing for you at this stage is to have whatever tests you can to rule out other problems besides ME/CFS that may be causing your symptoms. ME/CFS is a diagnosis of exclusion.
 
Messages
71
Location
Camdrigeshire
It's a little hard to understand what you mean by this and what you think the sports specialist will be able to tell you that a non-sports specialist won't. I was put in touch with one of the top sports specialists in the country and he concluded that I had ME/CFS, but had no advice to give me except what I had received elsewhere.

The important thing for you at this stage is to have whatever tests you can to rule out other problems besides ME/CFS that may be causing your symptoms. ME/CFS is a diagnosis of exclusion.

That is my point .....I want them to test for other things to discount them before saying its CFS. My dr was happy to say CFS without any further tests than the blood tests already done. That can't be right, can it?

But maybe I'm just being selfish in expecting them to discount other things 1st. It's only my (very new to this) opinion but there just seems too many different factors to this to all be one disease. It seems too easy for them to say 'you've got CFS' without being able to say why and be able to qualify their diagnosis.

Perhaps I'm on the wrong forum,but I'm sorry, I don't think that it's right to do that,its to convienient.

If I just accept that without question. That's it my running is over, and he could be wrong!

That's all really
 

Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
That is my point .....I want them to test for other things to discount them before saying its CFS.
I don't know what tests you've already had done, nor what further tests it's reasonable for you to insist that you have. You may have something other than ME/CFS that can account for your symptoms or you may have to settle for a diagnosis of ME/CFS.
But maybe I'm just being selfish in expecting them to discount other things 1st.
Without knowing more, it sounds as if you're being sensible, not selfish.
It seems too easy for them to say 'you've got CFS' without being able to say why and be able to qualify their diagnosis.
A good doctor will not have difficulty explaining why a diagnosis of ME/CFS has been given. It will be qualified by reference to exhaustive test results that show no underlying pathology that can explain the current array of symptoms. This of course does not mean that there isn't some underlying pathology that explains why PwME are the way they are; it simply means that nothing definitive has yet been found.

What you want ultimately doesn't sound much different from what all PwME want, however many tests they've been through in order to rule out other things. What they want is the definitive test that will actually show what is wrong with them, and hopefully how the problem can be remedied. At the moment it seems science is unable to provide an answer to either question.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Most evidence, I understand, shows that pwME do not have kinesiophobia or deconditioning.

If you want to exercise (and many of us find that we struggle to get through essential daily activities, so any extra is out of the question!) you need to stay below your anaerobic threshold, otherwise you will get PEM, usually after a delay (mine is currently about 2 days). A heart-rate monitor is a good tool for doing this. There are threads on these, and for estimating your own anaerobic threshold.

Pacing is the best management tool that most of us use, which means becoming highly attuned to what your body is indicating it can and can't do without harm. As soon as you feel the slightest discomfort, you need to rest. Some say that it is better to use the heart-rate monitor and stop before you feel any discomfort, and you may be able to sense the pre-discomfort signs with practice and attention.

There is a wealth of info on all these topics on this site. You can find them from the main forums page and from using the search box (search terms have to be 4 letters or more, and not too common, or you can use the alternative Google search on the site).
 
Messages
23
Location
London
It's hard to stop the sport isn't it? But thanks and I wish you luck at the clinic.
Hi there,
I'm new to this forum but I have experienced something very similar to you. I was a very active runner, cyclist, swimmer (etc) until mid last year. I've just come to the realisation that I have to give up sport for a while due to worsening symptoms. Hopefully not for ever - although I've been told by my doctor that a desire to keep pushing through is often at the root of CFS relapses in people "like me".
I don't know if there's a link between exercise and CFS but I have heard stories of people picking up training too soon after an infection. It's worth mentioning that I ran a marathon in 2013 two months after suffering from pneumonia. This was a year before any CFS symptoms kicked in but there's a chance I broke my immune system through recklessness at this point!