CFS/ME and Nature

[Davsey27]

In

@Wishful @Davsey27 Well some reviewers will always think that but if I remember from reading the book they were clear they were speculating, which IMO is fair enough since there are still many mysterys on the human body and we are far from a complete picture as of yet.

As for the the body suit thing, as far as I am aware, a farade cage has to be completely sealed so if there are any gaps you could potentially be making it worse some how, I don't know the mechanisms behind it though, perhaps it causes the waves to be bounced around in the suit.

It is very difficult to separate what effects are from being out it nature and what are from emfs. As you state in the video there are many effects that nature has. If it however has significant effects on reducing your symptoms then the argument is somewhat redundant.

I agree about the bouncing around

The face,hands,and feet were exposed

I have also heard these reports on the

EHS forums where symptoms were

intensified by shielded fabric clothing

The RF just needs an open area to enter

For me being in nature

surrounded by trees where cell towers

are more than a couple miles away feels

like a faraday cage.Ultimately

minimizing everything scientifically

known or unknown just feel better

In the woods away from wifi signals

and cell towers

Less CFS/ME symptoms but still

need to pace.

Thanks to both of you

 

[Mama Bear]

I suffer from debilitating depression and anxiety. Just the other day I was thinking maybe I'm sick because I slept on a waterbed when I was a kid and the electricity from the heat did something to my growing brain. Maybe my kids are so sickly because my uterus or eggs got messed up from the waterbed. I wonder if anyone has ever studied that. I highly doubt there's any correlation but at some point you do start grasping at straws. This post reminded me of that weird thought I had the other day.

 

[Wishful]

A gap in a Faraday cage will let in some EMF, but that means being shielded only 92% or whatever, instead of 100%. The cage can't magnify total EMF power. Standing at the focus of a reflector can increase the power level, so you might want to avoid standing for long periods at the focal point of a large parabolic dish pointed at an EMF source. A cage or conductive suit could provide local variations in power levels, but if you or the suit were moving, the variations would randomize, so I don't see it as a plausible method for causing higher biological effects.

To me, the most plausible cause for feeling worse by wearing a shielding suit is convincing yourself for whatever reason that you'll feel worse. Again, this is where double-blind testing comes in; in this case, using two suits that seem identical, but one has a hidden shielding layer, so the wearer doesn't know which is which.

 

[Davsey27]

A gap in a Faraday cage will let in some EMF, but that means being shielded only 92% or whatever, instead of 100%. The cage can't magnify total EMF power. Standing at the focus of a reflector can increase the power level, so you might want to avoid standing for long periods at the focal point of a large parabolic dish pointed at an EMF source. A cage or conductive suit could provide local variations in power levels, but if you or the suit were moving, the variations would randomize, so I don't see it as a plausible method for causing higher biological effects.

To me, the most plausible cause for feeling worse by wearing a shielding suit is convincing yourself for whatever reason that you'll feel worse. Again, this is where double-blind testing comes in; in this case, using two suits that seem identical, but one has a hidden shielding layer, so the wearer doesn't know which is which.

Wishful correct or incorrect my goal

is to live in a place surrounded by trees

and away from 5g

And be in that type of community most

If not all day.As a kid living in

Pennsylvania hitting golf balls in our

backyard with plenty of acreage felt

just right.I would be on my feet for hours

Now i can probably do 10 mins on

a practice putting green before the aches

and pains start coming.If i try to do what

Doctors and family tell me pushing

through then i end up with pem

The greens/forest is something that i

part of who i am.The puzzle is seeking a

Way for this to happen with CFS/ME and

1400 dollars in the bank.I have been

trying to build my walking distance

walking 2 hours in the woods with

breaks yesterday to work in an organic

Woof Farm i would need to stand for 6-8

hours.My parents will be moving to the

airport apartments in june.So i am

looking to get into an organic farm

by then.I am already being told i should

be independent but it is tough when

docs and family dont believe you

have cfs/me.

Sometimes it feels like you have to

be your own practioner

Finding

It challenging to build up to outdoor

blue collar work in a small window of

time.

Thank You Wishful

 

[Wishful]

I was living in an urban environment when I developed ME. I didn't have any real need to stay in the city, so I moved mainly to avoid urban stresses. The change didn't affect my ME. I do prefer living here, and my neighbours (furred and feathered) are much less demanding than humans. If you want to live in a rural, or even wilderness environment, go for it. However, if you're expecting it to reduce your ME, I suggest first opening a poll here about 'Does moving out of an urban environment reduce ME symptoms' or some such wording. If it doesn't help your ME, the stress of moving and supporting yourself with few job opportunities might worsen your ME. I seem to recall stories here about moves and other lifestyle changes that triggered severe crashes that made their situations even worse.

Financing such a move is a different matter. It depends on your skills and knowledge. Maybe online work?

 

[frozenborderline]

I

Unfortunately, there are plenty of pseudoscience books making claims about the body being influenced by some mysterious electrical fields or magic energies, and more unfortunately, these books (and other media) aren't clearly marked 'Pseudoscience'. It's up to readers to seek out other, more credible, sources to confirm or refute such claims.

I’m not sure if all of robert Becker’s work has been replicated , but given that he did publish a lot of impressive experiments with limb regeneration in frogs and healing non union fractures with electricity , detailed in The body electric. Albert Szent-gyorgyi actually proposed the theory that the living state involves some kind of semiconduction by proteins. There is a reflexive opposition to ideas like this because of the idea that they may Be vitalist, however this would not be vitalism proper, as electric currents are not a “substance” or “essence”. I see that There’s lots of snake oil out there built on these ideas but that doesn’t make the ideas themselves less valid. Becker was specifically using very small negative dc currents for his limb regeneration and healing non union fractures. A lot of the bullshit devices out there use some kind of pulsed larger amount of electricity. As far as I know some of his studies were published in high impact journals.

I recommend szent-gyorgyis short piece “cancer and the living state” on this subject. I think it delves into the epistemic problems of defining life as well as the technical problems of figuring out how it works

 

[Wishful]

The use of external electrical fields for healing wounds or fractures makes sense without vitalism. Electric fields could align cells, affect membrane activity, or other such things that can be modelled on a computer using known physics and chemistry. I'm a lot more skeptical about claims for processes (healing or whatever) that supposedly have powerful observable effects (melts tumors?) yet has no explanation in known science, and furthermore only seems to affect symptoms that can't be clinically measured (pain, wellness).

Hmm, if the recent discovery of biomarkers for pain severity becomes a reliable clinical test, a lot of those 'magical life energy' treatments (reiki, acupuncture) will have to face actual scientific testing. Interesting.

 

[Davsey27]

Yes perhaps there are different paradigms of truth for each individual

New Age ideas like reiki, ancunpucture, biofeedback is hard to prove

scientifically although I won't disregard anecdotal regards to individuals

healing from these various new age modalities. My former supervisor

at Delta told me a story about how he grew up in the countryside and there

was a ghost in house for many years till his mother passed.It would often make

noises at night doors opening and being shut and footsteps and boots.

Apparently there was a civil war solider who was murdered in the house.

There are some things that are anecdotal and cannot be measured by science.

Like a person healing from CFS/ME from a spiritual practice although not typically

common. I like your idea on the poll Mary. Perhaps modifying

the poll to moving to a rural area that is sunny and warm year round and lower in

emf may give better answers. Since once you start getting much above 30

degrees latitude the Solar yield isn't as strong.

Since rural areas can have 4g towers it would be

interesting to see if someone who moved south below florida and had remission.

I have heard an accounts where someone moved to cuba or some island in the

Caribbean and went into remission.

I learned that there are some people who live in Australia with ME despite the

good sunlight. Perhaps there are other factors such as infections ,methylation

problems, genetic mutations, high levels of non native emf who knows.

Generally with something like MS the closer you are to the equator the less the

prevalence of MS.I don't know if the same applies to ME as a lot are sensitive to

sunlight.

 

[frozenborderline]

Electric fields could align cells, affect membrane activity, or other such things that can be modelled on a computer using known physics and chemistry.

Or the living state could actually involve semiconduction rather than just the electrical fields affecting ion channels/being a side effect of membrane potentials or whatever ... The Body Electric and the Szent-Gyorgi piece I mentioned make very strong arguments for that. I sort of have a skeptic streak in me and haven’t done many of the crazier alternative medicine things Bc I don’t wanna waste money on something that I don’t know how it could work, but I find these arguments plausible. It’s too bad that there aren’t really any clinicians working. With appropriately sized microcurrents

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

In the city unless you wear a suit of armor that is grounded to the earth, you are constantly bombarded by electric fields of many strengthens and frequencies. If we could see in EM spectrum we would be blinded by all the energy around us. The best way to get away from it all is to find a deserted beach and play in the sand and surf, or go deep into the woods. Which are things I do sometimes...

 

[Wishful]

Grounding isn't necessary for blocking EMF. Induced currents would flow on the outside of the conductor. Grounding would only be useful for reducing static charge, which stays on the outer surface of a body, where it shouldn't be having any biological effect.

Even deserted beaches and woodlands aren't completely EMF-free. Even if there are no land-based transmitters nearby, there are plenty of satellites overhead at any given time, broadcasting downwards. Some satellites are continuously scanning the earth with radar. I expect that most people have no idea what the total EMF power is at a location.

 

[Davsey27]

Grounding isn't necessary for blocking EMF. Induced currents would flow on the outside of the conductor. Grounding would only be useful for reducing static charge, which stays on the outer surface of a body, where it shouldn't be having any biological effect.

Even deserted beaches and woodlands aren't completely EMF-free. Even if there are no land-based transmitters nearby, there are plenty of satellites overhead at any given time, broadcasting downwards. Some satellites are continuously scanning the earth with radar. I expect that most people have no idea what the total EMF power is at a location.

Good points Wishful

I am also struggling to get ss disability

because doctors will not believe i have

CFS and don’t know much about ME.

Despite my story of being able to

exercise wirhout crashing before and

Now having PEM.I dont even think they

Know about PEM or pacing in the

Phoenix/Health rising forum sense.

Because of this lack of social support

In the us i have thought about taking

The 1400 and moving to yucatan mexico

playing siniging crystal bowls in

exchange for donations or asking

the rastafarians to live off the land with

Them in jamaica.Perhaps the tropics

will have a good effect i don’t know.

Just brainstrorming options becuase right

now under the medical system here i will

have a difficult time getting social

security

If not for my parents they would

probably want me in a mental

institution

Applied to Dr jack kruse longevity farm

in louisiana and was told there are no

Positions nor volunteer in exchange for

Housing


By that time 5g will arrive when i hear

back from social security

This is why i am thinking ahead

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

Grounding isn't necessary for blocking EMF. Induced currents would flow on the outside of the conductor. Grounding would only be useful for reducing static charge, which stays on the outer surface of a body, where it shouldn't be having any biological effect.

The ultimate solution would be to live in a Faraday cage, that would insure you were shielded from a lot of EMF.

 

[Wishful]

I was thinking more about the satellite transmission issue. I don't feel like digging out the data and working out the math, but with all the satellite transmissions reaching any particular spot on earth, maybe the local cell towers are just a minor addition to total EMF power, like a street light during daylight.

5G will use higher frequencies than presently used by satellites, but we don't know much about potential biological effects at those frequencies. We do know that frequencies just three times higher than the maximum for 5G are fairly safe, since that's the low end of infra-red EMF, and life has been dealing with infra-red since it came into existence. It even offers health benefits.

Maybe 5G proponents will fund some studies that show health benefits from the higher frequencies, and work that into their sales pitch: '5G for better health!!!'

Ooops, I meant infra-red low end is 5x the frequency of the top 5G frequency. PEM-day miscalculation.

 

[Wishful]

Thinking yet more about the 5G issue. I think it's actually more likely that the proponents of 5G could provide studies proving health benefits from 5G radiation than the deterrents could provide studies proving health harm. Microwave energy should provide the same thermal benefits that IR does, so that could actually be tested and proven.

Not that I'm claiming that 5G would be beneficial or even safe; I don't personally have enough data or expertise to judge that. I'm just saying that it's probably easier to prove health benefits than to prove harm, especially if the harm takes a long time to show up. The same holds true for lower frequency EMF or even static fields. Proving health hazards is simply a more difficult task for many things. Conclusive proof that something has absolutely no potential for harming health is even harder.

 

[sb4]

@Wishful But to admit that it affects health at all (positive or negative) would be a contradiction to there current message that it doesn't have any effects on humans.

It would also make people start questioning more about what if it also has negative effects.

 

[Wishful]

Good thing I'm not in marketing.

 

[Davsey27]

I was thinking more about the satellite transmission issue. I don't feel like digging out the data and working out the math, but with all the satellite transmissions reaching any particular spot on earth, maybe the local cell towers are just a minor addition to total EMF power, like a street light during daylight.

5G will use higher frequencies than presently used by satellites, but we don't know much about potential biological effects at those frequencies. We do know that frequencies just three times higher than the maximum for 5G are fairly safe, since that's the low end of infra-red EMF, and life has been dealing with infra-red since it came into existence. It even offers health benefits.

Maybe 5G proponents will fund some studies that show health benefits from the higher frequencies, and work that into their sales pitch: '5G for better health!!!'

Ooops, I meant infra-red low end is 5x the frequency of the top 5G frequency. PEM-day miscalculation.

Wishful there is a difference between
infrared light from the sun and 5g. Sunlight is native emf which humans
have evolved with for thousand
of years Whereas 5g and wireless
devices are Non-Native man made
emf that human have only lived with recently.Although Sunlight can be bad for some traditionally humans would stay out of UV if it got too hot during hunter gathering days as well as now

Also blue-light is non native emf and
has been shown to cause disruptions
in melatonin secretion.Our ancestors lit
candles after it got dark and so we followed the natural circadium lights
Cycles of nature rather than being influenced from artificial lighting like
Fluorecent blue lights

Dopamine is made from sunlight
through the retina and can be interupted by blue light and
other Non Native emf

Our ancestors had their share of
problems that many of us don’t face
but at least they were living in accordance with the natural light cycles

There are also some exceptions to
this such as some break outs during sun
exposure due to allergies and those whose autoimmune diseases like MS or ME can be worsened
by too much sun exposure as well as
those who are sensitive to sunlight in
general.Red infrared light has also
been shown in studies to improve
mitochondrial health and microwaves
(man made NNemf) from wireless has not been shown to have positive effects on the mitochondria.If anything it has been shown in studies to promote ROS.

Also i also think that it is the responsibility for the government and corporations to prove tnat current
Emf levels are safe instead of needing to prove that it is harmful.

This is just my opinion

 

[Wishful]

Sunlight is native emf which humans
have evolved with for thousand
of years Whereas 5g and wireless
devices are Non-Native man made
emf that human have only lived with recently.

Photons do not have labels marked 'natural' or 'artificial'. There is no way of determining whether a photon is from a natural source or a man-made source; they are indistinguishable. All life on earth has been exposed to all frequencies of EMF since life started. The only real difference is the intensity at different frequencies. Yes, we didn't evolve with milliwatt levels of 60 GHz energy or even at 800 MHz, so there probably is a level at which there are significant health effects. We don't know that the highest safe level is, or alternatively, the lowest level that causes harm.

Also blue-light is non native emf

Nope, sunlight has blue light. It even has quite significant levels of UV light. There's probably x-rays too, at very low levels at times. Even gamma rays are natural, and we are exposed to that band at low levels, mostly from all-natural uranium and other natural radioactive elements.

Also i also think that it is the responsibility for the government and corporations to prove tnat current
Emf levels are safe instead of needing to prove that it is harmful.

It's simply very difficult to prove what level is safe. It's easy to prove that kilowatt levels are immediately harmful (cooking flesh). It's much harder to prove it for lower levels. As far as I know, the attempts to prove that EMF is harmful to humans at lower-than-thermal levels (too low to cook flesh) haven't been conclusive. Governments have set levels for exposure. Different governments set different levels, because there is no conclusive evidence for what is safe or harmful; they're just guessing and hoping they've set it low enough to avoid lawsuits while still pacifying business interests. The levels set for communication, including 5G, are based on a lack of studies clearly showing harm at those levels. The opponents of 5G (and other EMF) have the option of funding studies to conclusively prove harm, but they haven't managed to yet.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

or you could attach it to a blanket or bathrobe and wear that around the house

Sorry but I am entirely laughing at the potential spectacle of me in a aluminum foil bathrobe taking out the trash here in my little apartment complex!

I moved from 17 years VERY remote with VERY VERY Low EMF, literally maybe one weak WIFI Signal in the whole area. I was plenty sick there.

And now plenty sick here, surrounded by like 50 WIFI signals, meters etc.

But I have felt WIFI signals and microwave signals in my body during episodes of particularly acute illness.

I think its not helping but is not the SOLE answer to: our little Ditty.