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CFS/ME - an apple/bannana? Says Michael Sharpe

oceanblue

Guest
Messages
1,383
Location
UK
This quote from the BBC website:
Too vague, too precise?

Should the illness be called CFS, ME or CFS/ME?

Doctors prefer the term CFS as the main symptom is fatigue, while ME has a specific meaning related to inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.

However, this is not popular with some patients' groups or charities, which talk about ME as a specific disease, saying "fatigue" is too broad a term.

Prof Michael Sharpe, of the University of Oxford, said: "The concepts of CFS and ME have been conflated as CFS/ME. That may be right but it may be a bit like an apple/banana - we need to be clearer what we are talking about."
I may have got this wrong, but is Michael Sharpe acknowledging there could be an important difference between CFS and ME here?
 

Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
This quote from the BBC website:
I may have got this wrong, but is Michael Sharpe acknowledging there could be an important difference between CFS and ME here?

I'm not sure what he means but, just by the apple/banan analogy, he is saying they are both fruits - the same family, but like cousins - not twins.
They are related but, not the same?
 

oceanblue

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UK
I'm not sure what he means but, just by the apple/banan analogy, he is saying they are both fruits - the same family, but like cousins - not twins.
They are related but, not the same?
think he means it's a meaningless combination: if you tried to study and apple/bannana, you'd never get anywhere - you have to study them separately to understand anything.
 

biophile

Places I'd rather be.
Messages
8,977
He probably means some of the related "concepts" are opposing, that is the word he used. ME as an chronic multisystemic disease and CFS as a psychosomatic functional disorder. He also may hold the same position as White, that original ME was different than CFS but is now used interchangeably. I doubt Sharpe and White would see the need to separate CCC-ME/CFS etc from Oxford criteria CFS etc? Can you imagine if they did, an embarrassing admission that the "ME/CFS community" had been correct all along.
 

oceanblue

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UK
I doubt Sharpe and White would see the need to separate CCC-ME/CFS etc from Oxford criteria CFS etc? Can you imagine if they did, an embarrassing admission that the "ME/CFS community" had been correct all along.
Well, that's exactly what he seems to be saying to me, which is why I'm interested to hear if others interpret it the same way. Didn't Peter White say something odd like that about PACE not being relating to ME?
 

sianrecovery

Senior Member
Messages
828
Location
Manchester UK
the stuff from the scottish working party on this was interesting. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I see some nasty potential political subtexts underlying some of this debate
 

oceanblue

Guest
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1,383
Location
UK
Peter White is at it too, in the same article he said
Prof Peter White, of Barts and the London School of Medicine and Density, said: "Most specialist doctors and scientists agree that it is more than one illness. It may be three to five separate illnesses.

"Like kidney failure, it has lots of different causes, but looks the same."
This does look like a change in approach to me.
 

Sea

Senior Member
Messages
1,286
Location
NSW Australia
Maybe they're finally seeing the writing on the wall for their theories in relation to ME and want to save face by pretending they were never studying or talking about ME at all.
 

justy

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5,524
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U.K
Hi Sea, that's exactly how i read this. I think, especially after the Norwegian Rituximab study and govy apology that they are going to be doing some serious backpeddling in the U.K - it may still take some time, but in the end they will be able to claim that they had always asserted that CFS and M.E were not the same. That way they may not be open to having to apologise or be able to face lawsuits for their appaling treatment of M.E patients.

In a way though i think this is the first grumblings of change, which overall is a good thing.
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
Hi Sea, that's exactly how i read this. I think, especially after the Norwegian Rituximab study and govy apology that they are going to be doing some serious backpeddling in the U.K - it may still take some time, but in the end they will be able to claim that they had always asserted that CFS and M.E were not the same. That way they may not be open to having to apologise or be able to face lawsuits for their appaling treatment of M.E patients.
In a way though i think this is the first grumblings of change, which overall is a good thing.

this is why the Weasels have been hemming and hawing for while, "HPA Axis", "definitions", whatever, all as a "get out of 30 years in jail for Crimes Against Humanity when our fraud is exposed" trick.
Said that before.
So, keep evidence, especially any books they wrote, videos of interviews, quotes etc for when their asses get hauled into court one day.
First thing rats do when the merde hits the wind turbine, is BURN all the evidence of their crimes.
But before that, they always try and leave false trails, pretended "good deeds" to curry favour etc.
And only cowards and idiots fall for that, because a rat is a rat, they don't change their stripes.

Remember, these are people trained in manipulating their fellow Human Beings. These are the REAL "Hannibal Lectors".
Society in general is dumb, horror, bombs, slaughter etc gets attention, so fictional and real serial/spree/terrorist killers are big news etc
But far far worse have alway sbeen, the many-fold ways of contempt, cowardice, arrogance, greed and stupidity that collude to cause mega-deaths every damn year and no one bloody notices apart from some statistics and graphs that arouse no anger, no letters to government etc.

Children can die by the drove under car wheels, wonderful old people choke to death from destroyed lungs by the million, and others like us left to slowly rot to death, but long as it's not a bomb, cannot be used for politicial/financial gain, cannot be used to start a war for profit etc...no one gives a rat's backside.
(Comapre the ACTUAl death tolls form car accidents, alcohol and tobacco, vs terrorism etc for an eye opener on what our soicetal meadia and leaders put their priorities on)

Wessely and Co are not the real problem, they are merely the "agents" of various desires, groups, profit motives etc that run through society
Not talking about some secret "Dr Evil!!" silliness, just the way greedy and powerful people look for capable hands to see that their desires come to pass.
if some group in society asks too many questions, fund a pudnit who'll attack them.
If your addictive murderous but legal drug (tobacco etc) is being investigated, fund those who's research will show otherwise (not saying they are thus automaticlaly dishonest, as merely funding those who give weight to the approporiate side is enough for their needs, "ambiguity" is the defence of the duplicitous scumbag and they know it gets them otu of jail, see tobacco companies, and of course, even in science, you DO have corruptable people or merely those who're not open minded and thus also, not truly scientific)


shouldn't post...but this stuff is very important, it's about justice for one of the most heinous crimes in modern history.
Our "Berlin Wall" will fall, heads will roll, but this time, do NOT let them escape.


This is sooooo appropriate and what I wish to see one day.

[video=youtube;L50OZSeDXeA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L50OZSeDXeA[/video]


"Be seeing you!"

be-seeing-you.jpg
 

justinreilly

Senior Member
Messages
2,498
Location
NYC (& RI)
Hi Sea, that's exactly how i read this. I think, especially after the Norwegian Rituximab study and govy apology that they are going to be doing some serious backpeddling in the U.K - it may still take some time, but in the end they will be able to claim that they had always asserted that CFS and M.E were not the same. That way they may not be open to having to apologise or be able to face lawsuits for their appaling treatment of M.E patients.

In a way though i think this is the first grumblings of change, which overall is a good thing.

I totally agree with you, silverblade and sea. He is trying to exculpate himself by saying perhaps ME and Sharpe "CFS" are not the same, we don't know for sure, while drawing out the confusion a little bit longer by saying 'maybe they are the same, we don't totally know.'
 

WillowJ

คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl
Messages
4,940
Location
WA, USA
This quote from the BBC website:
I may have got this wrong, but is Michael Sharpe acknowledging there could be an important difference between CFS and ME here?

Sorry, but I also think it is just spin. He continues to insist that "various forms of rehabilitaiton" (i.e. CBT/GET) are the best answer we have at the moment, which idea is wholly based on that very conflation of CF and ME which he claims to find possibly unsatisfactory.
 

Battery Muncher

Senior Member
Messages
620
I totally agree with you, silverblade and sea. He is trying to exculpate himself by saying perhaps ME and Sharpe "CFS" are not the same, we don't know for sure, while drawing out the confusion a little bit longer by saying 'maybe they are the same, we don't totally know.'

Yep nail on head Silverblade, Sea, and Justin. This is just the start of a long and ignominious retreat.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,079
Location
australia (brisbane)
There is a way to find if wessely and his troops are right. Get them to show us all their success stories with CBT etc.
Maybe they have a good collection of bodies that real scientists could do autopsies on to find the real cause??

Cheers!!
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
While he's choosing between apples and bananas the real research moves on. Has he seen any. A little too complicated perhaps. Missed diagnoses (a la Byron Hyde ) he might consider for starters. Strongly suggest throw in the towel as most ordinary docs do until the real researchers continue to unravel the cause and aetiology.

Declared vested interest - told I was imagining everything by his ilk.
 

free at last

Senior Member
Messages
697
The more Scientific evidence shows provable data on patients, The more you will see this kind of back tracking. XMRV probably unerved them.

Likely thinking PHEW that was close.

Norway unerve them still, as does other research.

The more the evidence grows the more Slippery backtracking. laying new foundations for future denial of being seen as a all in the mind expert on ME/CFS
Its certainly a way of saving face. if they can seperate the CFS, and ME terms. Because they can always argue they was only refering to CFS.
Not the more Sever ME with there in mind comments, of both conditions. Its pure shifting of the goal posts, as the heat gets turned up. Thats what i think.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Hi Sea, that's exactly how i read this. I think, especially after the Norwegian Rituximab study and govy apology that they are going to be doing some serious backpeddling in the U.K - it may still take some time, but in the end they will be able to claim that they had always asserted that CFS and M.E were not the same. That way they may not be open to having to apologise or be able to face lawsuits for their appaling treatment of M.E patients.

In a way though i think this is the first grumblings of change, which overall is a good thing.

Im thinking like justy is. They are probably trying to pave the way for themselves so they can later on avoid possible lawsuits or whatever. When the shit goes and hits the fan, they can point out they said they were different things and use vague articles like this one to back their case.

I really hope all these slime balls dont end up getting away with their crimes and those they have harmed.
 

Francelle

Senior Member
Messages
444
Location
Victoria, Australia
The strange thing is I think that the UK has had the correct term all along - M.E. and has only more recently started to espouse the CFS term. The USA on the other hand has used the incorrect term for x number of years despite meaning the same disease state as M.E., whereas the UK it appears is using the term CFS for another condition all together.

Deliberately confusing, muddying the waters? Who knows?