CDC: CFS not subject to opportunistic infections?!

[JalapenoLuv]

You are wrong about the L form bacteria. Try reading the Faherty link.

 

[Hip]

You are wrong about the L form bacteria. Try reading the Faherty link.

Try reading what I said. The paper you refer to has nothing to with the link between L-forms and disease. So why do you mention it?

 

[JalapenoLuv]

Yes it does

 

[Hip]

Yes it does

The paper you refer to only speculates that the prevention of apoptosis by L-forms might play a role in things like cancer.

But finding a link (a statistical association) between L-forms and a given disease requires more than just speculation and hypothesis. Don't get me wrong, I find these possibilities that L-form bacteria my cause various diseases very interesting, and I would wager that it will turn out that they do cause a number of diseases; that's why I find the study of L-forms interesting; but solid evidence of an association between L-forms and disease is not yet there. That's just the state of the science at the moment.

Researchers like Gerald J. Domingue are doing sterling, solid work in this controversial field order to try to amass good quality evidence.

 

[JalapenoLuv]

Feherty cites multiple research articles showing how different species of bacteria block apoptosis. CFS research shows patients suffer from increased inflammation which is common to blocked apoptosis (i.e. the NF-kB pathway of bartonella). CFS research also shows alterations in WBC function which is common to bartonella which prevents macrophages from phagocitizing cells. I never said anything about cancer, however if you have cell persistence from blocked apoptosis then you have disabled a central mechanism of cancer defense.

I know the case hasn't been proven yet that CFS is caused by pathogens but if you look at the evidence its a great explanation.

 

[Hip]

@JalapenoLuv

In the Conclusion of the Faherty paper they talk about organisms which block apoptosis possibly promoting cancer.


As for ME/CFS being caused by pathogens, I think there is a good argument for Chlamydia pneumoniae, parvovirus B19, Coxiella burnetii and Brucella being proven causes of ME/CFS, in that ME/CFS is often seen to arise after infection with these pathogens, and ME/CFS then clears up when treatments are given to treat these pathogens and they largely disappear from the blood. So that's reasonable proof.

But in cases like enterovirus-associated ME/CFS, it's hard to detect these viruses in the blood (in part because enteroviruses often form intracellular infections, called non-cytolytic infections, which are difficult to detect). And there are no treatments that can cure an enterovirus infection. Therefore you cannot get the sort of evidence I just mentioned where when you eliminate the infection, the ME/CFS disappears.

Though Dr Chia's work with IV interferon treatment of ME/CFS was very interesting, because using this treatment, he found a number of ME/CFS patients with enterovirus infections went into remission for up to a year, with a concomitant decrease in enterovirus RNA in their blood leucocytes. When there was a relapse in ME/CFS in these patients, there was also a reappearance of viral RNA in the leucocytes. Chia's study is here. So this seem to be moving towards a proof that enterovirus can cause ME/CFS.

 

[JalapenoLuv]

@JalapenoLuv

In the Conclusion of the Faherty paper they talk about organisms which block apoptosis possibly promoting cancer.

Blocking apotosis absolutely promotes cancer. This is why induction of apoptosis is a mainstay of chemotherapy.

As for ME/CFS being caused by pathogens, I think there is a good argument for Chlamydia pneumoniae, parvovirus B19, Coxiella burnetii and Brucella being proven causes of ME/CFS, in that ME/CFS is often seen to arise after infection with these pathogens, and ME/CFS then clears up when treatments are given to treat these pathogens and they largely disappear from the blood. So that's reasonable proof.

Though Dr Chia's work with IV interferon treatment of ME/CFS was very interesting, because using this treatment, he found a number of ME/CFS patients with enterovirus infections went into remission for up to a year, with a concomitant decrease in enterovirus RNA in their blood leucocytes. When there was a relapse in ME/CFS in these patients, there was also a reappearance of viral RNA in the leucocytes. Chia's study is here. So this seem to be moving towards a proof that enterovirus can cause ME/CFS.

You're assuming that. I would say that immunity is being blocked which is raising existing enterovirus titers. It is opportunistic.

 

[Hip]

I am assuming what? Please be clearer.

 

[JalapenoLuv]

@JalapenoLuv
So this seem to be moving towards a proof that enterovirus can cause ME/CFS.

This.

 

[Sinclair]

Natural killer cell function deficiency seems to be found in many ME/CFS patients, but I understand that there is no deficiency in the number NK cells in ME/CFS patients, but rather it is the activation/functioning of these cells that is low.

@Hip , sorry I understand you said this a few months ago in this thread....this is very interesting to me, since I have absolute below range numbers of NK, and CD4 low with CD4/CD8 inverted ratio in 0.56 (which seems to be the opposite in most PWME)

In addition, I belong to the never-catch-colds subtype...and when I rarely recently had a week of flu-like symptoms, due to pushing my shifting-to-Th1 protocol, I felt quite a relief from the ME/CFS symptoms...(another issue discussed in this thread as well)

Working on leaky gut and following the enterovirus theory has helped significantly but these numbers and no new improvements for several weeks make me wonder something else I need to handle...for the moment, I will start an Isoprinosine course, prescribed by an immunologist...

Since I have IgG+ for EBV, for CMV and for C.Pneumoniae (but with no indication of titers) I am wondering if it is worth trying something over here....

I am sorry, I don't know whether these might be suspected as reactivations or opportunistic infections (topic of this thread), or if my post is too off-topic. any insights most appreciated,

 

[Hip]

@Sinclair
Chlamydia pneumoniae can cause ME/CFS on its own, and is treatable with antibiotics. Though its hard to work out whether this might be the cause of your ME/CFS. More info here:
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome — A Roadmap For Testing And Treatment

Having low numbers of NK cells is not the same as having low activation/functioning of NK cells. It is the latter which is common in ME/CFS.

A study of the Chinese "HIV-like" virus showed it may produce an abnormal ratio of CD4/CD8. See here.

 

[Sinclair]

Many thanks @Hip

 

[dannybex]

Yes Jonathan Edwards, you may be right about all this doctors getting it wrong, it has happened many many times before in the past, the peptic ulcers which were thought to be caused by stress and spicy food are the classic example. We can thank Dr. Barry Marshall for infecting himself with Helicobacter Pylori to prove his hypothesis.

Yes, we can certainly thank him, but perhaps he's didn't get it quite right as well. Interesting to note that most people w/h pylori have no symptoms at all. It's my understanding that approximately 3 out of 20 with the infection actually develop ulcers...

???

 

[dannybex]

OK, so there seems to be some sort of consensus that ME/CFS is not specifically and consistently an immunodeficiency state and that it is not associated with opportunistic infection in the strict sense, which is where we started out.

I am very ready to believe that individuals with ME have immune abnormalities but I am still not convinced there is sufficiently well documented and reproduced evidence for known abnormalities in even subsets.

I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open.

@Jonathan Edwards I'm curious what you think about this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16889122

And here's the full abstract:

http://www.ncf-net.org/pdf/UckunCFSCD19.pdf

Thanks in advance.

 

[dannybex]

Bumping for @Jonathan Edwards ...