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CDC and FDA recommend US pause use of Johnson & Johnson's Covid-19 vaccine over blood clot concerns

Jennifer J

Senior Member
Messages
997
Location
Southern California
This would not be a very good guide to how it would effect you as the vaccine puts the PEG directly into your blood. Testing it on your skin wont!

It's in Miralax. That's what I had a reaction to a few years ago. I realize this isn't same as a vaccine directly into your blood yet I was going to try a tiny bit orally (not on the skin), then call vaccine companies and figure out ratio of PEG in vaccine to Miralax. Still wasn't a good idea and my immunologist said even if mild reaction not to have a vaccine with it.
 
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Booble

Senior Member
Messages
1,464
Yes, according to the few articles I read, the thrombocytopenia noticed after ARN vaccine and the one seen after adenovirus vaccine are different (although both are auto-immune)

ITP is a primary autoimmune attack destroying platelets (thrombocytes). No blood clot in this process.
Bleeding occurs because platelets fall under a critical level.
You don't need anticoagulant drugs to treat this disease.

DIC is primary thrombosis disorder: something triggers blood clots to happen in the vessels, that leads to platelets and clotting factors consumption.
In this case the fall of platelet is secondary to the clotting event.
Bleeding occurs when the platelets are two low.
Anticoagulant drugs (like heparin) are used to treat DIC, unless the platelets are too low.

DIC is not usually a primary autoimmune disease, and some specialists make a distinction between DIC and the DIC triggered by anti PF4 autoantibodies

This auto-immune DIC involving PF4 have a special name HIT (heparin induced thrombosis).
HIT was named this way, because these antibodies were discovered as an autoimmune complication in the DIC treatment with heparin.
This separation is important, because even though in both of them the low platelet count is secondary to the clotting events, the treatment is not the same:
heparin is used in classic DIC whereas in HIT you can't use it, so you need to fight the clotting with another drug.

Some specialist also make a distinction between HIT and Astrazeneca induced thrombosis, because heparin is not involved in the second.

In fact the auto-antibodies involved seem the same in both cases, but heparin as the power to activate them, and even to trigger them.

I'm sorry, I can't give a better and more synthetic explanation, it's a bit complicated

The guy in Florida whose platelets all disappeared. Wasn't that BEFORE J&J was available?
They were not able to get his platelets back and then he died from a brain bleed (I think).

Does this mean we actually KNOW the treatment for the Oxford Astra Zeneca and J&J and we DON'T KNOW the treatment for the very rare mRNA platelet problem?
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
The guy in Florida whose platelets all disappeared. Wasn't that BEFORE J&J was available

this platelet thing unfortunately happened to my son in laws Uncle in Mexico City, Astra Zeneca.

Its very very rare. Unclear why , in his case, this occurred. But it is not yet clear if he will make it thru. He went back into the hospital, very troubling.

So thats a male, oh in fairly good health, probably 65-70.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
The guy in Florida whose platelets all disappeared. Wasn't that BEFORE J&J was available?
They were not able to get his platelets back and then he died from a brain bleed (I think).

Does this mean we actually KNOW the treatment for the Oxford Astra Zeneca and J&J and we DON'T KNOW the treatment for the very rare mRNA platelet problem?
The ITP treatment is already known, I have posted an article by Dr Brussel about it

Here an article from Dr Bussels about ITP treatment

What Is the Optimal Treatment of ITP? - ASH Clinical News

;;
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
The "vaccine shaming" is tough. I 100% support vaccines, I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I encourage other people to get vaccines. It's hard when people don't really know (or believe) that your body works differently. To everyone it's just unfounded paranoia.

I also 100% support the vaccines and am not an anti-vaxxer. Most people in my life completely understand and support my decision not to get the vaccine (and some of them are also not getting the vaccine for their own personal or medical reasons). But lately it has become a major topic of conversation with people asking others about their vaccine status and/or bragging about themselves being fully vaccinated (and I do NOT mean people on this board and am talking about in real life).

The guy in Florida whose platelets all disappeared. Wasn't that BEFORE J&J was available? They were not able to get his platelets back and then he died from a brain bleed (I think).

Which guy in Florida? Now I am confused :confused:

this platelet thing unfortunately happened to my son in laws Uncle in Mexico City, Astra Zeneca. Its very very rare. Unclear why, in his case, this occurred. But it is not yet clear if he will make it thru. He went back into the hospital, very troubling.

I remember you posting about this and am sorry to hear that he is back in the hospital and hope that he will be okay.

The ITP treatment is already known, I have posted an article by Dr Brussel about it

Isn't ITP a condition that existed prior to the COVID vaccines vs. the type of blood clots that (we think) were triggered by the mRNA vaccines? Or am I totally confused? I need to look at the links again.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
Isn't ITP a condition that existed prior to the COVID vaccines vs. the type of blood clots that (we think) were triggered by the mRNA vaccines? Or am I totally confused? I need to look at the links again.

ITP can be triggered by a vaccine or a viral infection, it's not exclusive to an RNA vaccine, and it's not a clotting disease. I know it's difficult to understand, because both DIC and ITP can induce bleeding, but the clotting only happen in DIC (clotting is an aggravating factor, so DIC is worse than ITP in that point of view)
is a primary autoimmune attack destroying platelets (thrombocytes). No blood clot in this process.
Bleeding occurs because platelets fall under a critical level.
You don't need anticoagulant drugs to treat this disease.
 

Gemini

Senior Member
Messages
1,176
Location
East Coast USA
Anti-SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein and Anti-Platelet Factor 4 Antibody Responses Induced by COVID-19 Disease and ChAdOx1 nCov-19 vaccination | Research Square

Authors of this pre-print article, interestingly, found no molecular mimicry going on between antibodies to the spike protein and a platelet factor.

Their "Discussion" section offers an alternative explanation:

The mechanism by which ChAdOx1 nCov-19 [AstraZeneca] vaccination rarely induces antibodies that cause marked PF4-dependent platelet activation with resulting thrombocytopenia and unusual thromboses is unresolved.

One potential mechanism is a general response of the immune system triggered either by vaccination or by the proinflammatory state of severe acute Covid-19. Clinical observations show unusually strong proinflammatory symptoms in the majority of individuals starting about eight to twelve hours post-vaccination, lasting for 12-24 hours.

Potentially, this inflammatory response in certain individuals (e.g. by differences in their genetics, HLA type, or proinflammatory conditions) may have led to the observed occurrences of severe VITT (n=31 patients reported in Germany at the time of writing).


[my paragraphing and bolding]

I hope researchers study/compare all 4 vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, & J&J for thrombocytopenia which may have different causes not only in different people but different underlying vaccine technologies.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
ITP can be triggered by a vaccine or a viral infection, it's not exclusive to an RNA vaccine, and it's not a clotting disease. I know it's difficult to understand, because both DIC and ITP can induce bleeding, but the clotting only happen in DIC (clotting is an aggravating factor, so DIC is worse than ITP in that point of view)

Thank you for explaining this further and it is all so confusing! :headslap:

I hope researchers study/compare all 4 vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, & J&J for thrombocytopenia which may have different causes not only in different people but different underlying vaccine technologies.

I agree 100% and this all must be investigated further and not swept under the rug.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
I found the following CNN article to be very helpful in putting the blood clot issue into perspective:

These blood clot experts want you to get a Covid-19 vaccine. Here's why.

Elsewhere, I have read that the chances of a getting a blood clot even with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are a little less than one in a million - six cases have been reported out of a total of seven million doses, with one fatality. As was pointed out, even assuming that these clots were caused by the vaccine, this is still less than your chance of being struck by lightning.

Also, there have been no blood clot issues reported with the mRNA vaccines - the Pfizer and Moderna. In the U.S., at least, it is quite easy to get one of these vaccines. As the above article points out, blood clot issues from COVID-19 itself are orders of magnitude more common than any that arise from the vaccines, and these issues tend to be more severe as well.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I'm not sure if anyone else posted this article from Medscape yesterday so I wanted to add it to this thread. It is re: the CDC finding more cases of rare blood clotting condition and deaths linked to the J&J vaccine in the US.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticl...513_MSCPEDIT&uac=235907DN&impID=3372648&faf=1

From the article:
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Wednesday it had found more cases of potentially life-threatening blood clotting among people who received the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine and sees a "plausible causal association".

The CDC said in a presentation the agency has now identified 28 cases of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) among the more than 8.7 million people who had received the J&J vaccine. TTS involves blood clots accompanied by a low level of platelets - the cells in the blood that help it to clot. So far, three of the 28 have died.

The CDC said on Wednesday the events appear similar to what is being observed following administration of the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in Europe.

Both vaccines are based on technology that uses adenoviruses, which can cause the common cold, as vectors. The modified viruses are used to carry DNA instructions into the body to make specific coronavirus proteins, priming the immune system to make antibodies that fight off the actual coronavirus.

Scientists are working to find the potential mechanism that would explain the blood clots. A leading hypothesis appears to be that the vaccines are triggering a rare immune response that could be related to these viral vectors.

The bolding above is mine and "rare immune response" is my middle name.