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Cardiovascular Autonomic Neuropathy CAN

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,939
I suspect most of us have autonomic failure and CAN with Small Fiber Neuropathy
How to know if you have it?

CAN is diagnosed by the standardised cardiovascular autonomic reflex function tests (CARTs).
Quantitative Sudomotor Axonal Reflex Test (QSART) and Skin biopsy are used for SFN diagnosis.

"These tests assess the parasympathetic system by evaluating beat-to-beat variations during deep breathing, moving from the supine to the standing position and during the Valsalva maneuver (Vals) .
On the other hand, orthostatic hypotension (OH) and the blood pressure response to Vals mostly evaluate the sympathetic system ."

"Cardiovascular reflex tests that include tilt test, deep breathing and Valsalva maneuver are clinically established tests to evaluate patients with orthostatic intolerance [10-12].
The tilt test can detect syncope, orthostatic hypotension and cerebral hypoperfusion that underlie orthostatic symptoms.
Mechanisms provoked by the tilt are complex and include combinations of autonomic, humoral and cardiovascular responses [13-15].
Valsalva maneuver and deep breathing test are used to further refine the integrity of cardiovascular reflex circuits.
Valsalva maneuver assesses predominantly adrenergic functions [16] while deep breathing test evaluates mainly parasympathetic functions [17].

Small fiber autonomic and sensory neuropathy is a common underlying mechanism of orthostatic intolerance [18-23], and can be further evaluated using the quantitative sudomotor axonal reflex test (QSART) [10-12] and skin punch biopsies for assessment of small fibers [24-28].

Cardiovascular reflex and sensory small fiber testing

Our testing protocol used established standards [10,35,36] and was been previously described [36]. Cardiovascular tests included deep breathing, Valsalva maneuver and tilt test.
Sudomotor functions were assessed by the QSART. Signals were recorded using LabChart 7 system (ADInstruments, Inc. Colorado Springs, CO) and sampled at 400 Hz and included electrocardiogram (ECG), blood pressure, respiratory movement using a nasal thermistor, end tidal CO2, and blood flow velocity in the middle cerebral artery using Transcranial Doppler.

RESULTS

Data from 612 patients were included in the analysis. The following diagnostic groups were represented: diabetes mellitus (n,age ± sd,f/m) (92, 61.6 ± 12.6, 42/50), Parkinson disease (88, 70.9 ± 10.8,36/52) and multiple system atrophy (23, 63.8 ± 11.4,10/13).
The remaining patients (n=409) represent a heterogenous group with history of other disorders (typically with n<15) than mentioned above; these disorders include migraine, hypertension, multiple sclerosis, atypical parkinsonism, coronary artery disease, unexplained dizziness, chronic fatigue syndrome and others.

This study provides strong evidence that sensory and autonomic abnormalities coexist.
Both sensory and sweat gland fiber densities were reduced in small fiber neuropathies. The reduction of both types of fibers was disease dependent, being highest in diabetes followed by Parkinson disease.
Furthermore, the fibers reduction was proportional to the severity of autonomic failure.

Therefore inclusion of epidermal sensory and sweat gland fiber density evaluation enables more detailed grading of the severity of small fiber neuropathies and also helps to localize the lesion.

Low correlation of QSART with either epidermal or sweat gland fibers calls for caution when interpreting the QSART results. QSART might overestimate the sudomotor deficit [51] and retest reliability of the QSART is also limited [52,53].This study suggest that sweat gland fiber density might be used as an alternative to QSART.


MORE DETAILS ABOUT METHOD

Deep breathing test was performed at the rate of 6 breaths per minute for 1 minute. Valsalva maneuver was performed in the supine position with an expiratory pressure equal to 40 mm Hg for 15 seconds. Participants were allowed to rest for 10 minutes in supine position and were then tilted to the upright position at 70 degrees for at least 10 minutes if tolerated. QSART was performed using the Q-Sweat machine (WR Medical Electronics, Stillwater, MN) at regional limb temperature above 29.9°C with the simulation current 2 mA for 5 minutes, and the sweat volume was collected for 10 minutes. Baseline supine blood pressure was obtained intermittently using an automated blood pressure device Dinamap ProCare Monitor 100 (GE, Fairfield, CT) and continuously (beat-to-beat) using Finometer® (Finapress Medical Systems, Amsterdam, Netherlands). During the tilt test, the blood pressure was obtained every minute using the Dinamap ProCare and continuously using Finometer®. Normative data for deep breathing test, blood pressure response to the Valsalva maneuver and tilt test, adjusted for age and sex if appropriate, were published previously [10,27,28,36]. The temporal acoustic window with a 2 MHz Transcranial Doppler probe was used for acquisition of blood flow velocity signals using a MultiDop T (DWL, Singen, Germany).
For the Valsalva maneuver, normal response is defined as systolic blood flow velocity ≥85% of the baseline at the end of the phase 2. Epidermal sensory fiber density (ENFD) and sweat gland fiber density (SGFD) were obtained using 3-mm full-thickness skin punch biopsies taken from the lateral thigh (20 cm distal to the iliac spine) and distal leg (10 cm above the lateral malleolus) and stained with PGP 9.5 antibody [23-26]. The samples were processed at Therapath (New York, NY).

The normal values for both ENFD and SGFD were determined by Therapath. The limits of normality for ENFD (5th percentile) at the thigh were 6.2/8.3 (men/women) fibers per millimeter of epidermal length.


https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2018/5607208/
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...iopsies-qasat-2329-6895-1000226.php?aid=50516
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
The same autonomic function tests are done for Autonomic Neuropathy which can occur without having CAN though.
Other than having (positional) tachycardia, hypertension or hypotension (which can all occur from other causes), CAN will likely also come with findings of some other cardiac defect I believe and an ECG might also detect sinus tachycardia, an (possibly just borderline) abnormal QT interval, or demonstrate an issue with ejection fraction, septal bounce or left ventricular diastolic abnormality, just to name a few possibilities.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,939
The same autonomic function tests are done for Autonomic Neuropathy which can occur without having CAN though.
Other than having (positional) tachycardia, hypertension or hypotension (which can all occur from other causes), CAN will likely also come with findings of some other cardiac defect I believe and an ECG might also detect sinus tachycardia, an (possibly just borderline) abnormal QT interval, or demonstrate an issue with ejection fraction, septal bounce or left ventricular diastolic abnormality, just to name a few possibilities.

Are you sure of that? Many patients here report abnormal heart poundings in their chest without anything showing at ECG or Ultrasound. So I think we all need a complete cardiovascular reflex testing.

I gave autonomic dysfunction as tested with those tests, caused by adrenergic a1 and muscarinic m4 antibodies, but not SFN.

I do have high auto-antibodies against adrenegic a1, AT1R, ETAR and borderline elevated M3 and adrenergic a2,
and sensory symptoms of SFN and cardiac arrhythmia.

But from what I have observed during the course of my disease which is 35 years lasting now, the skin sensory symptoms came very late in the evolution, long after heart pounding sensation began, long after widespread pain, long after delayed muscle relaxation and cramping, brain fog, etc.
My theory (based on my experience from the inside and scientific readings) is that all comes from small nerve fibers hyperexcitability to the internal organs, muscle, heart, brain blood vessels, ie Small Fiber Neuropathy.

The problem is that SFN testing involves only skin small nerve fibers testing, whereas you can have small nerve fiber damages that do not involves the skin.

If you have widespread muscle pain, your small nerve fibers should be tested in the muslce, if you have digestive track dysautonomia, your small nerve fibers should be tested in the gut/stomach, idem for the heart!

I gave my theory to searcher Dr Todd Levine, and he seemed to agree with it, and told me some others think the same.

For this reason, a negative testing for SFN doesn't mean you don't have Small Nerve Fiber Damages, it only means you don't have it in the skin...

By the way it's easy to know if you have it in the skin, no need to do a biopsy if you have zero at the wrinkling finger test and if you have typical skin paresthesia in hands and feet, with nothing showing up at the nerve velocity test, you are likely to have a positive skin biopsy for SFN...
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Are you sure of that? Many patients here report abnormal heart poundings in their chest without anything showing at ECG or Ultrasound. So I think we all need a complete cardiovascular reflex testing.
Always warrants having any possible the cardiac function abnormality checked out but the heart poundings in the chest can be just an autonomic issue involving impaired vasodilation and vasoconstriction responses and the heart just gets signals to up the oputput rate at an inappropriate time. By my reckoning, it's possible that auto-antibodies against adrenegic a1, a2, AT1R, ETAR and M3, M4 acetylcholine receptors could be involved somewhere in the mix too.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,939
The same autonomic function tests are done for Autonomic Neuropathy which can occur without having CAN though.
Other than having (positional) tachycardia, hypertension or hypotension (which can all occur from other causes), CAN will likely also come with findings of some other cardiac defect I believe and an ECG might also detect sinus tachycardia, an (possibly just borderline) abnormal QT interval, or demonstrate an issue with ejection fraction, septal bounce or left ventricular diastolic abnormality, just to name a few possibilities.
I don't find evidence for what you wrote.
What is CAN? It's just Altered Autonomic Function of the heart and vessels with HR and blood pressure autonomic dysregulation.
CAN is best studied in Diabete (du to the peripheral neuropathy and SFN Diabetic people suffer with), so we can learn a lot from it:

"One of the most overlooked of all serious complications of diabetes is cardiovascular autonomic neuropathy (CAN),1–3 which encompasses damage to the autonomic nerve fibers that innervate the heart and blood vessels, resulting in abnormalities in heart rate control and vascular dynamics.4

The present report discusses the clinical manifestations (eg, resting tachycardia, orthostasis, exercise intolerance, intraoperative cardiovascular liability, silent myocardial infarction [MI], and increased risk of mortality) in the presence of CAN."

Clinical Manifestations of CAN
Resting Tachycardia (vagal impairment)
Exercise Intolerance
Intraoperative and Perioperative Cardiovascular Instability
Orthostatic Hypotension
Orthostatic Tachycardia and Bradycardia Syndromes (POTS)
Silent Myocardial Ischemia/Cardiac Denervation Syndrome
Increased Risk of Mortality etc



The diagnostic of CAN doesn't take into account the complete ECG and Ultrasound results, it explores mostly the sympathetic/parasympathetic balance.

That said, CAN in Diabetic people is often associated with microangiopathy/angiopathy and abnormal ECG and ultrasound findings like you said (prolonged QTc, ST depression…), but it's not clear if it is linked to autonomic neuropathy or to some other additional factors specific to Diabetic people.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.106.634949
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
@pattismith Well I guess going strictly on those parameters, I technically have CAN too as the the autonomic function tests I had reported a finding of cardiovagal dysfunction, as well as sudomotor dysfunction, but only concluded it to be Autonomic Neuropathy.
I suspect a combination of vagus nerve compression (in the celiac plexus) and increased venous pressures into my left kidney and adrenal gland from (Nutcracker Syndrome) causes the autonomic issues though and I don't think there's a test that can differentiate the cause of cardiovagal dysfunction in this scenario.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,939
@pattismith Well I guess going strictly on those parameters, I technically have CAN too as the the autonomic function tests I had reported a finding of cardiovagal dysfunction, as well as sudomotor dysfunction, but only concluded it to be Autonomic Neuropathy.
.

"Sudomotor dysfunction can occur both in central disorders affecting centers of sudomotor control such as acute ischemic stroke, multiple sclerosis and neurodegenerative syndromes as well as autonomic peripheral neuropathies which selectively affect unmyelinated and small, lightly myelinated nerve fibers "

this means that your AN is likely a peripheral neuropathy and SFN more specifically/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6380109/


@pattismith
I suspect a combination of vagus nerve compression (in the celiac plexus) and increased venous pressures into my left kidney and adrenal gland from (Nutcracker Syndrome) causes the autonomic issues though and I don't think there's a test that can differentiate the cause of cardiovagal dysfunction in this scenario.

not sure I understand well what you mean.
Cardiovascular autonomic testing can give evidence of vagal involvement (parasympathetic impairement), but if your vagal problem is only at the coeliac plexus level(which is in the abdomen), then the vagus nerve to the heart should still functioning well and cardiovascular autonomic testing should be normal.
Am I wrong?
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,939
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5763036/

in this article about Diabetic CAN:

"Pathogenetic treatment of diabetic CAN includes:

Balanced diet and physical activity; optimization of glycemic control;
treatment of DLP; antioxidants, first of all α-lipoic acid (ALA), aldose reductase inhibitors, acetyl-L-carnitine; vitamins, first of all fat-soluble vitamin B1; correction of vascular endothelial dysfunction; prevention and treatment of thrombosis; in severe cases-treatment of OH.

The promising methods include prescription of prostacyclin analogues, thromboxane A2 blockers and drugs that contribute into strengthening and/or normalization of Na+, K+-ATPase (phosphodiesterase inhibitor), ALA, dihomo-γ-linolenic acid (DGLA), ω-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (ω-3 PUFAs), and the simultaneous prescription of ALA, ω-3 PUFAs and DGLA, but the future investigations are needed.

Development of OH is associated with severe or advanced CAN and prescription of nonpharmacological and pharmacological, in the foreground midodrine and fludrocortisone acetate, treatment methods are necessary."