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Can you be "too clean"?

debored13

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Just dashing out, @debored13, so no time to answer properly... but I'm absolutely not saying that things that are actually toxic (e.g. some types of mould) aren't a problem, and I have MCAS myself, so I know what it's like. It's just that some of the 'toxins' and 'unclean' foods aren't even always defined clearly, let alone known to be harmful. It's more about manipulating people into a mindset, so they begin to invent their own theories about 'toxicity'. I'll admit it's extremely clever, but I'm also convinced it can do real harm in some cases.
I would agree somewhat but I think in many cases people become really reactive to a variety of things and it has nothing to do with phobia. Some people’s mcas has improved with moving out of mold, some of it has improved with ivig, and some of it has improved with cci treatment. So in many cases not each individual trigger is at fault but one is still reactive and it’s tough to manage without fixing the ultimate problem
 

debored13

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Probably not if it’s chronic exposure but if the detox was effective and the current environment is mold free I don’t see why something that’s said to be helpful for healing the brain or stimulating neurogenisis couldn’t be helpful.
the problem is I don't think there's evidence for any of the brain training things "stimulating neurogenesis" and a lot of them are more like brainwashing techniques than anything. There are lots of things that are proven to stimulate neurogenesis which may be more worth looking into than brain retraining, which is also costly
 

debored13

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Let me explain briefly why brain retraining for toxic exposure is bullshit: toxicity is demonstrated by all of these compounds--mycotoxins, etc, in vitro in cells--cytotoxicity, without the need for a central nervous system or "beliefs" or cognitive patterns. They are toxic to cells. You can't retrain your cells to not respond to toxins. Even if your cells are uniquely hypersensitive, that is something explainable at the cellular level. naviaux's cell danger response theory proposes that mitochondria have memory of past stressors. It's not all something mediated by threat awareness or the limbic system or whatever buzzword. Yes its unfortunate people have to avoid things due to hypersensitivity, but until researchers look into the connection btwn mold and cfs its what people have got, and probably better than nothing
 

debored13

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@SueJohnPat do you have an update?
I have this exact same reaction but it's too hard to believe, but I'm experiencing it .

I don't think it's being to clean , I think it's that our bodies have broken down and everything is a problem . I too had no chemical or food sensitivities but now it's everything, everything is a problem . Maybe we do have CIRS.

I had high antibodies to multiple molds but everything else that was tested , was negative . Strangely, the dr said he didn't think it had anything to do with all my health issues . Uh, ok, I raised the issue of mold and there came the blood work results .

Yes, I think we have toxin overload . It's the environment. I loved gasoline , candles and scented lotion , I can't breathe around any of it and turn "drunk". There is some oxygen component as well that I can't figure out . Maybe we need to go in chambers , I don't know

But I think we have plenty challenging our immune systems just living in this highly toxic environment, eliminating the stuff that we can , is probably a positive
mold avoidance has been known to help with multiple chemical sensitivity, whereas one remains always sensitive to mold...
 
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@SueJohnPat do you have an update?
I have this exact same reaction but it's too hard to believe, but I'm experiencing it .

I don't think it's being to clean , I think it's that our bodies have broken down and everything is a problem . I too had no chemical or food sensitivities but now it's everything, everything is a problem . Maybe we do have CIRS.

I had high antibodies to multiple molds but everything else that was tested , was negative . Strangely, the dr said he didn't think it had anything to do with all my health issues . Uh, ok, I raised the issue of mold and there came the blood work results .

Yes, I think we have toxin overload . It's the environment. I loved gasoline , candles and scented lotion , I can't breathe around any of it and turn "drunk". There is some oxygen component as well that I can't figure out . Maybe we need to go in chambers , I don't know

But I think we have plenty challenging our immune systems just living in this highly toxic environment, eliminating the stuff that we can , is probably a positive
I am sorry you are experiencing this. I just had a terrible experience. I went to the me/ cfs conference in Bethesda Maryland. I was feeling great drove down by myself. I have been sleeping all winter in a new travel trailer next to my house. I am able to hike up to 6 miles. I slept in the hotel one night and lost my memory the next day. The organizers called my husband and he and my son came down to get me . I am fine today. Slept in the trailer last night. I don’t know if it’s a case of Transient global amnesia but I really think it had something to do with reacting to something in the Motel . This was a beautiful motel and I don’t think there is anything “ wrong “ with the place. I think I am just extremely sensitive due to not sleeping indoors . Erik Johnson / Lisa petison write a lot about this.
I am going to start a new thread about this in a few days.
 

xena

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mold avoidance has been known to help with multiple chemical sensitivity, whereas one remains always sensitive to mold...
that hasn't been true in my experience. i had severe reactions to mold, i did mold avoidance for a number of years and was diagnosed with mold toxicity by several mold specialists. DNRS brought down my mold reactivity from completely debilitating to not affecting my life. i've heard of at least 8 or so other cases of people bringing down or eliminating their mold reactions by doing brain retraining. therefore i see MCS and mold reactions as having the same mechanism. i think people often develop MCS while living in a mold home, though, which may be a source of confusion about that.

the brain is involved in regulating the immune system, there's a lot of research about this- it's actually a field called psychoneuroimmunology. that said, i don't think hyperreactivity and toxicity are the same issue although they co occur and are related in many cases.

---------------
from Robert Naviaux's paper on the CDR

"The default state in both the brain and peripheral tissues is CDR activation.
In the absence of additional information, danger and threat are as-
sumed. Healing is an active process that requires positive reinforcement
with non-danger, safety and security signals from the brain.

The brain controls metabolism and exit from the CDR
The last step in the healing cycle, CDR3, is ended when the brain re-
establishes bidirectional neuroendocrine and autonomic communica-
tion with each organ system. Only after the brain re-integrates meta-
bolism over the periodized course of wakeful activity and restorative
sleep can the health cycle be re-established."

Robert Naviaux actually wrote the introduction to Dr. Neil Nathan's book Toxic which is a clinical approach based on "rebooting" the cell danger response and in the book Neil Nathan recommends various forms of brain retraining and says it's something he tells his patients to do. Obviously, I wouldn't draw the conclusion that Dr Naviaux is recommending it but I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that your brain is involved in exiting the CDR and that brain retraining can help your brain send safety signals to the rest of your body.
----------------------

i also was very resistant to the idea that my mind was affecting my illness somehow but based on my experiences, i believe it is, greatly. That doesn't mean there isn't something physically wrong and that we don't deserve excellent treatments and clinical research into pharmaceutical therapies, I have plenty of labs documenting physiological abnormalities and I seek out medical treatment for those. Maybe other people are not as affected by their mind, I'm not interested in trying to convince people but empirically, brain retraining helped me significantly. I very much see it as a treatment with physiological effects. When you shift your body towards a relaxation response (my body is always looping in a stress response) it changes physiologically, you digest and detoxify better. Your immune system calms down.

there's good scientific evidence that people are more vulnerable to every major disease, from heart disease, to autoimmune diseases and cancers if they have experienced significant childhood trauma. That doesn't mean those diseases aren't real or physical.
 
Last edited:

debored13

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that hasn't been true in my experience. i had severe reactions to mold, i did mold avoidance for a number of years and was diagnosed with mold toxicity by several mold specialists. DNRS brought down my mold reactivity from completely debilitating to not affecting my life. i've heard of at least 8 or so other cases of people bringing down or eliminating their mold reactions by doing brain retraining. therefore i see MCS and mold reactions as having the same mechanism. i think people often develop MCS while living in a mold home, though, which may be a source of confusion about that.

the brain is involved in regulating the immune system, there's a lot of research about this- it's actually a field called psychoneuroimmunology. that said, i don't think hyperreactivity and toxicity are the same issue although they co occur and are related in many cases.

---------------
from Robert Naviaux's paper on the CDR

"The default state in both the brain and peripheral tissues is CDR activation.
In the absence of additional information, danger and threat are as-
sumed. Healing is an active process that requires positive reinforcement
with non-danger, safety and security signals from the brain.

The brain controls metabolism and exit from the CDR
The last step in the healing cycle, CDR3, is ended when the brain re-
establishes bidirectional neuroendocrine and autonomic communica-
tion with each organ system. Only after the brain re-integrates meta-
bolism over the periodized course of wakeful activity and restorative
sleep can the health cycle be re-established."

Robert Naviaux actually wrote the introduction to Dr. Neil Nathan's book Toxic which is a clinical approach based on "rebooting" the cell danger response and in the book Neil Nathan recommends various forms of brain retraining and says it's something he tells his patients to do. Obviously, I wouldn't draw the conclusion that Dr Naviaux is recommending it but I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that your brain is involved in exiting the CDR and that brain retraining can help your brain send safety signals to the rest of your body.
----------------------

i also was very resistant to the idea that my mind was affecting my illness somehow but based on my experiences, i believe it is, greatly. That doesn't mean there isn't something physically wrong and that we don't deserve excellent treatments and clinical research into pharmaceutical therapies, I have plenty of labs documenting physiological abnormalities and I seek out medical treatment for those. Maybe other people are not as affected by their mind, I'm not interested in trying to convince people but empirically, brain retraining helped me significantly. I very much see it as a treatment with physiological effects. When you shift your body towards a relaxation response (my body is always looping in a stress response) it changes physiologically, you digest and detoxify better. Your immune system calms down.

there's good scientific evidence that people are more vulnerable to every major disease, from heart disease, to autoimmune diseases and cancers if they have experienced significant childhood trauma. That doesn't mean those diseases aren't real or physical.
I'll respond to this briefly because I feel like there's ample arguments against dnrs elsewhere.

A) I don't think "the mind" exists exactly. I am not resistant to the idea that my illness is caused by something in my head. Specifically my brainstem is being compressed by bone due to my ligaments becoming lax.
B) one reason I am resistant to dnrs, is that it focuses on the body supposedly "overreacting" to toxins , and I believe there's a wealth of evidence showing that many of these toxins are cytotoxic ans you don't need to be conscious of them for them to damage you.
My story is a great example. Mold essentially damaged my ligaments through inflammation, leading to this very serious ans even life threatening condition. Learning to ignore responses to mold would be dangerous. I was already doing that for years (had no idea I was being slowly poisoned ) and it did not work. It led to this bad outcome