Can anyone explain TH1/TH2 shift and possible drugs to alter it?

[heapsreal]

I'm not overly confident of liver flushes of being much use, but I'm definitely confident that quackwatch is not a good source of information for deciding what medical practices are quackery or not.

hixxy

agree with quack watch, i think its simon wessel who runs that site

 

[Waverunner]

I'm not a fan of quackwatch either but the site at least tries to back up their claims through studies. Here's another article/site, done by a surgical oncologist.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/would-you-like-a-liver-flush-with-that-colon-cleanse/

""We conclude, therefore, that these green stones resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or soap stones.""

 

[adreno]

Astragalus looks promising as an agent capable of shifting the immune response back toward Th1:

[Modulatory effect of Astragalus membranaceus on Th1/Th2 cytokine in patients with herpes simplex keratitis].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15015443/

[Regulatory effect of astragalus injection on Th1/Th2 cell function in patients with cervical cancer].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21275166/

Effects of Astragalus membranaceus in promoting T-helper cell type 1 polarization and interferon-gamma production by up-regulating T-bet expression in patients with asthma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17361521/

 

[Xandoff]

I think it is important to remember that "many" of us BEGAN our Th1-to Th2 shift in childhood. I was a severe asthmatic with 65 allergies. I am told that this weighted my immune system to Th2 to begin with. You add major life stress and some type of a viral assault (I have a partial empty sella). I read a M.E. Scottish Study that studied children with ME from an early age of kids who missed around a half a year of school and who grew up to have ME. This fits me. XMRV positive in 2010 and Nagalase levels 1.90 in April 2012, I am hoping to begin GcMAF in June. Thank you all who contributed to this thread.This is just my take on the "SHIFT".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Cheny notes on this thread: Researchers have demonstrated that most CFIDS patients end up stuck in Th2 mode. This has several consequences. When the Th2 system activates, it blocks the Th1 system. This suppresses the Th1 weapons, particularly NK function. Accordingly, there is also an increase in the Th2 weapons - the white cells and antibodies. Most notable is increased antibody production. Dr. Cheney said that if you measure antibodies to anything a CFIDS patient has ever been exposed to, they will very likely be elevated. (At this point he drew small arrows beside the "weapons": They pointed down on the left side to indicated suppression / lower levels; and they pointed up on the right side to indicate activation / higher levels.)

Cheney notes that other problems ensue. Patients get into trouble on both sides: they overreact to things on the right side and under-react to those on the left. When they are Th2 activated, they no longer have the defense mechanisms to keep dormant all the things they caught in the past. They cannot suppress or control them anymore, and the EBV, chlamydia pneumonia, CMV, etc. reactivate. The yeast also begins to appear.

The only defense against being eaten alive at this point is RNase L. (For more information about RNase L, see The Three Phases of CFIDS and other articles in the Cheney section of our website.) RNase L cannot kill any of these things. It only stops them from reproducing. According to Cheney, "It's a line in the sand saying 'No more replication', and it waits for Th1 to come and kill them. But Th1 never comes. RNase L sits there and grinds away, possibly going up and down as the pathogens activate and reactivate. But they never get wiped out. RNase L holds the line, waiting for the cavalry that never arrives."

While it is valiantly trying to hold the line, it is also chewing up human messenger RNA, inhibiting all the enzymes in the body, disrupting protein synthesis, and generally making patients miserable. As RNase L grinds away, it eventually shifts into "after-burner" desperation mode - the more powerful and deadly low molecular weight form discovered in CFIDS patients by Suhaldonik.

 

[Charles555nc]

People refuse to try the flush just once...yet give their opinion on how useful it is. What sense does that make? I cant possiblely gain anything by lying about how good flushes are. I didnt mentition a brand for most of the products listed, so I cant be getting "a kick back".

And Quackwatch is the biggest garbage site, full of garbage studies, by special interest parties. Quakwatch=misinformation site. If you dont trust their site, why are you quoting them? Anyone, anywhere can claim "a study" was done and showed that their competitors are "quacks" or "discredited" (which means absolutely nothing). I am pretty sure chronic fatigue syndrome was considered "a mental issue" on their site at some point.

The biggest joke is that somehow olive oil and lemon juice= neon green stones lol (half of the stones Ive gotten out are actually brown btw). You can flush without lemon juice at all and get the same results. BOOM, disproven theory.

There was a "study" at one point that claimed everyone who voted republican was a racist (not on quackwatch). Dont trust random studies by people who often have HUGE conflict of interests. Adults have to think for themselves now. The age of trust is over lol. If your doctor says "its all in your head", do you quit trying to get better? Or do you get a 2nd opinion?

I had multiple chemical sensitivities, all throughout child hood. Im also XMRV positive. GcMAF made me crash pretty hard, I wish you better luck Xandoff.

 

[Xandoff]

Thanks Charles555NC!

I will keep you posted on the GcMAF. You had MCS as a kid, that must have been awful. I had 65 allergies and at 6 years old I took allergy shots that were made up of everything I was allergic to. I continued this till I was 13. I used to get three shots a week, then two a week and then one a week. I am know longer allergic to all those things, and I out grew my asthma because my lungs got bigger! I was def Th-2 weighted.

 

[hixxy]

I concur with the early development on Th1 -> Th2 shift. I develop Eosinophilic Esophagitis in my early teens, but looking back, I had problems before this as well sensitivity wise.

Eosinophilic esophagitis is that horrible disease a lot of babies are born with these days where they're allergic to pretty much every food. This is pretty much me at the moment.

hixxy

 

[Charles555nc]

I begged my sister not to vaccinate her kid right away (directly after birth) but she did anyway. Now he has eyesight problems and is allergic to breast milk.

Vaccinations increased by 3x times as much since the 1990s alone. Lots of heavy metals and infectious contaminates in vaccines.

 

[hixxy]

In Australia they're trying (may have succeeded?) to take away all public medical benefits to those who aren't vaccinated, essentially forcing parents to vaccinate their children?

I haven't been keeping up with this, so I'm not too sure what the outcome is.

hixxy

 

[Adster]

This is a really good rundown on the Th cells and treatments:

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/immune_restoration.html

 

[Seadragon]

Finally refound this thread - interesting discussion.

Thanks Rich for explaining in detail the TH1/TH2 shift - I understand it better now.

Some good ideas here that I may run past my immunologist and others that I can try for myself.

Exhausted so can't write more today but a massive thanks for all the input from everyone. I'm starting to learn a lot on this forum

Love Esperanza x

 

[Marco]

Celebrex (a cox -2 inhibitor) might be helpful in balancing the TH1/TH2 immune response (plus other anti inflammatory benefits).

Can't copy and paste from this unfortunately :

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...Q6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=glutamate COX 2&f=false

 

[Adster]

Lactobacillus paracasei looks useful as a TH1 promoter. Not sure if it's readily available or not though.

Edit: I wonder if these people will sell it in small amounts. Might email them http://www.uaslabs.com/sections/raw_materials.php?material_id=18

 

[Adster]

Some more thoughts for this thread. I've recently had my Vit D tested and it has come back quite low (30). The problem is that whenever I try to supplement it I have a strong negative reaction to it. So I did some googling and it turns out Vit D is a TH2 promotor. This could explain the negative reaction. Vitamin D is often used to treat MS, which is supposedly a TH1 dominant condition.

 

[AbbyDear]

I agree with @Charles555nc - i believe the liver flush is legit (actually having done several of them myself). They are difficult, and it may be that some should avoid due to the high fat, the high magnesium sulfate, the removal of the stones, and any other possible risk/complication. Unfortunately, they did not help my condition, but i do not regret the effort - a lot a crap (stones) "did" come out (and there is no study that could tell me otherwise).

I also agree that there is "probably" no real substitute for mechanical dislodgement of the stones. Some of the stones were very hard (and not green btw). Solvents may help, but my guess it may take a long time for little progess (though that may be better then none at all). I also believe that if this is done, than a series of flushes should be done in a row, i believe, no more than a month apart. Tthe closer i did them together, then fewer large "soft green" stones came out - which i believe to be more recently formed (since last flush possibly), further out, stones. So i think that doing them further apart would be more or less spinning wheels with these newly formed stones (soft dark green). The closer i did the flushes, the more different color and hardness, smaller stones came out, and less (if any) of the larger soft dark green ones did. However, you do need to allow time to recuperate and stabilize (e.g. the magnesium and/or sulfate load) between flushes.

Once again, i am not advocating these, just providing experience and opinion.

 

[Charles555nc]

When I say the age of trust is over, I mean it. Drug companies dont even try to cure any diseases anymore, but treat them FOREVER. Even getting arrested is big money for private prisons, and ofc hospital stays are big money...
Doing flushes helped me lose weight, feel really relaxed, and think more clearly before I got ill. But heres what worked for me after I got ill: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...iate-improvement-with-arvs.30010/#post-461846

 

[Changexpert]

Low cortisol levels are the hallmark of CFS.
It's the only biological marker that puts some doubt even in the minds of the proponents of the biopsychosocial model of CFS. I was told by my CBT therapist that CFS patients typically have low cortisol, whilst in depression cortisol tends to be high. That's anyhow what saved me when I was in the hands of these guys.
I doubt one can successfully raise cortisol levels with this illness. If you can do that, you probably don't have it anymore.

I realize this thread is old, but this statement makes no sense to me. I never knew it was IMPOSSIBLE to have depression and CFS at the same time. Please run away from that therapist...

 

[Hip]

I never knew it was IMPOSSIBLE to have depression and CFS at the same time.

The comment you quoted does not imply that it is impossible to have depression and ME/CFS at the same time.

Furthermore, it is not only possible, but common to have depression as a comorbid condition to ME/CFS.

A recent poll on this forum found that nearly a third of ME/CFS patients have depression.

 

[Changexpert]

The comment you quoted does not imply that it is impossible to have depression and ME/CFS at the same time.

Furthermore, it is not only possible, but common to have depression as a comorbid condition to ME/CFS.

A recent poll on this forum found that nearly a third of ME/CFS patients have depression.

Urm...

"I was told by my CBT therapist that CFS patients typically have low cortisol, whilst in depression cortisol tends to be high."

And yes, CFS/ME and depression can happen simultaneously. I was trying to imply that too, but maybe my statement did not get across the way I intended.

 

[Hip]

Oh, OK.