Biotin and Methylation

[dmholmes]

Does biotin effect methylation? I can only find info on it's role in the citric acid cycle. I had complete remission of symptoms for a week on biotin, but then back to normal . Trying to see if I depleted something else or need more. Thanks.

 

[richvank]

Does biotin effect methylation? I can only find info on it's role in the citric acid cycle. I had complete remission of symptoms for a week on biotin/, but then back to normal . Trying to see if I depleted something else or need more. Thanks.

Hi, David.

Not that I know of. Biotin is one of the nutrients that is depleted in HPU/KPU though, and some of the others that are also depleted in that condition (notably zinc and B6) are needed by the methylation cycle and related pathways.

I'm guessing that you must have been low in biotin, and hence had a backlog of substances that were able to enter the Krebs cycle and give you an energy boost when biotin came up. But over time, this "money in the bank" was used up and then you were again subject to another metabolic limitation that is more fundamental than the biotin deficiency.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[dmholmes]

Hi, David.

Not that I know of. Biotin is one of the nutrients that is depleted in HPU/KPU though, and some of the others that are also depleted in that condition (notably zinc and B6) are needed by the methylation cycle and related pathways.

I'm guessing that you must have been low in biotin, and hence had a backlog of substances that were able to enter the Krebs cycle and give you an energy boost when biotin came up. But over time, this "money in the bank" was used up and then you were again subject to another metabolic limitation that is more fundamental than the biotin deficiency.

Best regards,

Rich

Thank you Rich. I know for sure it has been using magnesium. I found many people with constipation from biotin, the only side effect I've noticed other than a small headache if I take over 1 mg.

I've been trying to pinpoint where that next metabolic limitation is in the Krebs cycle, most of it is over my head. Best guess I have so far is lysine which has an association with biotin, and I was low in lysine in my plasma amino acids test last year. Thoughts?

BTW, here are some good videos on cellular respiration including the Krebs/citric acid cycle if anybody is looking.

Thanks!

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi David,

I was going to mention magnesium. My understanding is that increased biotindase activity will place demands on magnesium. If you supplement enough biotin you'll show signs of mg deficiency like twitching etc. I know you know all about magnesium

Susan Costen Owens wrote the Biotin Section in the DAN! book, and she mentions lipoic acid and pantothenic acid in relation to biotin/biotindase. I'm sorry my level of understanding isn't good enough to tell you how this might fit in your case!
Susan runs the yahoo group "trying low oxalates". I think oxalates can replace biotin in certain enzyme functions if you have dysbiosis wich leads to low biotin and/or leaky gut which leads to oxalates circulating. A search for biotin in that group brings up more information.

...I don't know if there's anything there that might give you a clue what to look at next? I was just reading about Biotin myself so thought I'd put my 1 cent in!

Best,
Anne.

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

I was going to mention magnesium. My understanding is that increased biotindase activity will place demands on magnesium. If you supplement enough biotin you'll show signs of mg deficiency like twitching etc. I know you know all about magnesium

Susan Costen Owens wrote the Biotin Section in the DAN! book, and she mentions lipoic acid and pantothenic acid in relation to biotin/biotindase. I'm sorry my level of understanding isn't good enough to tell you how this might fit in your case!
Susan runs the yahoo group "trying low oxalates". I think oxalates can replace biotin in certain enzyme functions if you have dysbiosis wich leads to low biotin and/or leaky gut which leads to oxalates circulating. A search for biotin in that group brings up more information.

...I don't know if there's anything there that might give you a clue what to look at next? I was just reading about Biotin myself so thought I'd put my 1 cent in!

Best,
Anne.

Thanks for the info Anne. Yep, I've doubled my magnesium now. But I've also lowered the biotin as I'm not sure that taking more will do any good.

In my case the biotin has been depleted by Klonopin, hoping that will resolve when I'm not taking it anymore.

avid

 

[dmholmes]

Rich, I've been looking around the Krebs cycle, its intermediates, and biotin associated carboxylases looking for a clue. Nothing is jumping out at me as a limiting factor that could be supplemented. Still looking...

 

[richvank]

Rich, I've been looking around the Krebs cycle, its intermediates, and biotin associated carboxylases looking for a clue. Nothing is jumping out at me as a limiting factor that could be supplemented. Still looking...

Hi, David.

Sorry, I don't know what might be limiting in your case. The approaches I can suggest are either to take a broad-spectrum multi that covers all the known vitamins and essential minerals, together with a supplement that contains omega-3 and -6 fatty acids and a diet that contains animal-based protein, which will cover all the known essential nutrients, or to do detailed testing to see which of the essential nutrients are depleted.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[aprilk1869]

Have you looked at Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCTs)? You can buy it as an oil plus coconut oil is high in MCT.

The energy-enhancing properties of MCTs are attributed to the fact that they cross the double mitochondrial membrane very rapidly, and do not require the presence of carnitine, as do LCTs (Fig. 2). The result is an excess of acetyl-coA, which then follows various metabolic pathways, both in the mitochondria (Krebs Cycle) and in the cytosol, resulting in the production of ketones. Scientists attribute the increased energy from consumption of MCTs to the rapid formation of ketone bodies. MCTs are thus a good choice for anyone who has increased energy needs, as following major surgery, during normal or stunted growth, to enhance athletic performance, and to counteract the decreased energy production that results from aging.
http://www.nutritionreview.org/library/mcts.php

 

[nanciswell]

I take high doses of biotin and have oxalate problems. It helps alot with my fatigue and with candida problems.

WHen a person has oxalate problems , there is often what is called a dumping process whereby the oxalates come out of storage and make a person feel worse. I have found this with taking biotin. So maybe you are in a stall period because you have done nothing to address lowering you oxalate total load/. There is a low oxalate diet one needs to follow and depending on the person will take time to see permanent results.

nanci

 

[dmholmes]

I take high doses of biotin and have oxalate problems. It helps alot with my fatigue and with candida problems.

WHen a person has oxalate problems , there is often what is called a dumping process whereby the oxalates come out of storage and make a person feel worse. I have found this with taking biotin. So maybe you are in a stall period because you have done nothing to address lowering you oxalate total load/. There is a low oxalate diet one needs to follow and depending on the person will take time to see permanent results.

nanci

Hi Nancy, thank you so much! It was one of your posts that got me to look at and try biotin. That's when I discovered that biotin, and many other nutrients, are depleted by clonazepam (Klonopin) which I have been on for several years. I'm now trying to taper and hopefully recover from the anti-nutrient damage it has caused.

avid

 

[dannybex]

Clonazepam...and nutrient depletion

Hi Nancy, thank you so much! It was one of your posts that got me to look at and try biotin. That's when I discovered that biotin, and many other nutrients, are depleted by clonazepam (Klonopin) which I have been on for several years. I'm now trying to taper and hopefully recover from the anti-nutrient damage it has caused.

avid

Hi David,

I hadn't heard that clonazepam depletes biotin -- I've read it depletes b12 and coQ10 however -- but was wondering if you have a link or links to the 'many other nutrients' that it depletes?

I've tried to taper off (using the Ashton method) and got close, but then my medicaid doc switched me back(!). Long story, but eventually want to get off of it as well. I'm sure you know that it's the only benzo that has anemia and low white blood cell count as "side effects".

THANKS,

Dan

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

I hadn't heard that clonazepam depletes biotin -- I've read it depletes b12 and coQ10 however -- but was wondering if you have a link or links to the 'many other nutrients' that it depletes?

I've tried to taper off (using the Ashton method) and got close, but then my medicaid doc switched me back(!). Long story, but eventually want to get off of it as well. I'm sure you know that it's the only benzo that has anemia and low white blood cell count as "side effects".

THANKS,

Dan

Hi Dan,

The book I quoted previously: "Barbiturates deplete biotin, folic acid, and vitamins D and K. Benzodiazepines deplete these nutrients, plus calcium and melatonin."

Clonazepam is an anticonvulsant, there is quite a bit of data on anticonvulsant nutrient depletion. Here are a couple:

Effect of long-term treatment with antiepileptic drugs on the vitamin status.

Vitamin status in patients on chronic anticonvulsant therapy.

I haven't seen any mention of Coenzyme Q10 depletion in my research. Biotin is the most depleted from what I've seen.

 

[Rockt]

Wondering how much you guys think clonazepam has to do with our symptoms? In my case, I think it's affected me a great deal. Since I've been on it, (at least 2 1/2 years, though I'm not sure), my mental PEM has increased to the point where I can no longer read books, and even short durations on the computer are detrimental. Yet, it snuck up on me and I never attributed the symptoms to the benzo because it was "helping". Plus, "it's such a small dose".

Read these 2 quotes somewhere, (I think the first is Dr. Ashton):

"For most long term users of benzodiazepines, the risks of usage outweigh the benefits. In most people the benefits wear off. Although a person taking a tranquillizer or sleeping tablet regularly may believe they still derive benefit, all the medication is really doing is suppressing withdrawal symptoms."

"Withdrawal either occurs through the development of tolerance without an increase in dose, or through a decrease in dosage below your "tolerance point". Your tolerance point is the dose point below which the functioning of your receptors becomes impaired due to a deficiency in stimulation from the drug. Your tolerance point may be lower than your actual dosage, such that you can sometimes cut your dose by some amount without experiencing withdrawal symptoms. However, this does not mean that you will not experience withdrawal symptoms by cutting the dose further."

In my case, I was taking .5mg every night. According to the second quote, this would create "development of tolerance without an increase in dose". I definitely think this was going on. I've been tapering with Fred's advice. I'm down to 3/4 of a .5mg pill after 30 days, but I'm taking divided doses throughout the day and I'm feeling a little better. I think, (hope!), getting off clonazepam is going to help. Going to take awhile though.

 

[dmholmes]

Wondering how much you guys think clonazepam has to do with our symptoms? In my case, I think it's affected me a great deal. Since I've been on it, (at least 2 1/2 years, though I'm not sure), my mental PEM has increased to the point where I can no longer read books, and even short durations on the computer are detrimental. Yet, it snuck up on me and I never attributed the symptoms to the benzo because it was "helping". Plus, "it's such a small dose".

In my case I'm prepared to say it has everything to do with my condition. Still trying to taper by cutting, water titration didn't work for me. I'm at 1/8 of a .5 mg tablet (62 micrograms or .0625 mg). It's not an accurate cut at that size of course, I may get a compounding pharmacy to make some lower dosages.

 

[Freddd]

In my case I'm prepared to say it has everything to do with my condition. Still trying to taper by cutting, water titration didn't work for me. I'm at 1/8 of a .5 mg tablet (62 micrograms or .0625 mg). It's not an accurate cut at that size of course, I may get a compounding pharmacy to make some lower dosages.

Hi David,

I can supply a taper and method that WORKS! Send me a private message. You don't need the cost of the compounding pharmacy.

 

[dannybex]

Hi Dan,

The book I quoted previously: "Barbiturates deplete biotin, folic acid, and vitamins D and K. Benzodiazepines deplete these nutrients, plus calcium and melatonin."

Clonazepam is an anticonvulsant, there is quite a bit of data on anticonvulsant nutrient depletion. Here are a couple:

Effect of long-term treatment with antiepileptic drugs on the vitamin status.

Vitamin status in patients on chronic anticonvulsant therapy.

I haven't seen any mention of Coenzyme Q10 depletion in my research. Biotin is the most depleted from what I've seen.

Hey David -- thanks for the link. I don't think I ever saw that one...at least I hope my brain isn't that mushed up so that I totally forgot about it so quickly. !!!

That's good to know however, and makes sense. I've had problems with all the nutrients you mention -- every single one.

I do wonder too if heavy metal or other environmental toxicities play a role in making it difficult or MORE difficult for some of us to get off these drugs, as things like mercury for example, also disrupt mineral transport, in some cases quite severely.

And I'd be curious to know how benzos may affect methylation and other phase 2 liver detox issues. I've read that they inhibit phase 1, but not sure how that relates to phase 2 and specifically methylation.

Perhaps Rich will pop by...

Thanks again,

Dan

p.s. The list I found was here, and also taken from a book:

http://www.healthdesk.com/blog/825633

 

[dannybex]

Wondering how much you guys think clonazepam has to do with our symptoms? In my case, I think it's affected me a great deal. Since I've been on it, (at least 2 1/2 years, though I'm not sure), my mental PEM has increased to the point where I can no longer read books, and even short durations on the computer are detrimental. Yet, it snuck up on me and I never attributed the symptoms to the benzo because it was "helping". Plus, "it's such a small dose".

Read these 2 quotes somewhere, (I think the first is Dr. Ashton):

"For most long term users of benzodiazepines, the risks of usage outweigh the benefits. In most people the benefits wear off. Although a person taking a tranquillizer or sleeping tablet regularly may believe they still derive benefit, all the medication is really doing is suppressing withdrawal symptoms."

"Withdrawal either occurs through the development of tolerance without an increase in dose, or through a decrease in dosage below your "tolerance point". Your tolerance point is the dose point below which the functioning of your receptors becomes impaired due to a deficiency in stimulation from the drug. Your tolerance point may be lower than your actual dosage, such that you can sometimes cut your dose by some amount without experiencing withdrawal symptoms. However, this does not mean that you will not experience withdrawal symptoms by cutting the dose further."

In my case, I was taking .5mg every night. According to the second quote, this would create "development of tolerance without an increase in dose". I definitely think this was going on. I've been tapering with Fred's advice. I'm down to 3/4 of a .5mg pill after 30 days, but I'm taking divided doses throughout the day and I'm feeling a little better. I think, (hope!), getting off clonazepam is going to help. Going to take awhile though.

I think getting off will help too -- anything that taxes the liver, and depletes nutrients -- and LOWERS WHITE BLOOD CELL COUNTS -- can't be that 'helpful' or 'protective' and Dr. Cheney says. I'm disappointed that he never, ever mentioned the links to anemia and neutropenia, but perhaps he was unaware of it when his "Myths of Klonopin" report was distributed.

I've been taking approximately 1.25 mgs a day for the last six months. Prior to that I tried the vailum taper per Ashton, and had gotten down to 2 1/2 mgs of valium (which I believe is the equivalent of .25 mgs of clonazepam), and was certainly anxious, etc., but then my medicaid doc refused to continue, and put me back on clonazepam -- and within days I had to go back up to about 1 mg just to (barely) function.

Interesting that the clonazepam made your brain fog worse Rockt. I found that when I started the Ashton taper, that the valium made my brain fog much, much worse, and that clonazepam made it easier to concentrate -- but we're all different...

Also quite interesting that Ashton doesn't recommend any supportive nutrients, in fact I think she says to avoid supplements, but not sure about that right now.

As mentioned in the previous post -- I think that perhaps other issues, like environmental toxins may play a part in making it more difficult for some of us to get off benzos, but that once those are dealt with -- even partially -- then it might be easier. I know one person who had mold issues who had to deal with that before they could start a taper.

Best regards,

Dan

 

[dannybex]

David -- I'm not sure if clonazepam (klonopin) is officially considered an anticonvulsant, but that might be splitting hairs. I totally understand where you're coming from (the way it helps with fasciculations, etc.,) but just haven't seen it in lists of anticonvulsant drugs.

Have you? That would be important to know for sure.

 

[dannybex]

p.s.p.s. I have read a couple of anecdotal reports where one person found that Deplin seemed to help her calm down quite a bit so that she thought she could start tapering, and also another person mentioned taurine helping her get off klonopin.

okay, I'll shut up.

 

[dmholmes]

David -- I'm not sure if clonazepam (klonopin) is officially considered an anticonvulsant, but that might be splitting hairs. I totally understand where you're coming from (the way it helps with fasciculations, etc.,) but just haven't seen it in lists of anticonvulsant drugs.

Have you? That would be important to know for sure.

Without a doubt, it's used to treat epilepsy. Google 'clonazepam anticonvulsant', a plethora of resources.