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Best source of epicatchin: dark chocolate or cocoa powder?

katabasis

Senior Member
Messages
153
It was mentioned by @daveu close to the start of this thread, and then several times thereafter, tho not at any depth since this thread is mostly about chocolate and it's beneficial constituents, and which form provides the most of that, and the most reliable sources of them:

I didn't mean to imply nobody had mentioned green tea, but that nobody had mentioned the extract. And even though the original post is about chocolate, it seemed germane to also be discussing green tea and extracts thereof since the purpose of the chocolate in the original post was to ingest catechins, which green tea also contains.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
it seemed germane to also be discussing green tea and extracts
I agree.

Given that @daveu had already established that he reacted badly to green tea generally, and had posited this thread to address his backup choice, as it were, I think that everyone just stuck to his primary interest ....

You might want to open a thread on green tea extract, and the good response you've had from it in spite of your reactivity to caffeine (which is shared by a fairly good-sized number of members here) .... it could be a huge help to current members and especially to newcomers, who are often baffled and a little desperate for help, and would be grateful to know that there's a substitution for the green tea or matcha that they can no longer comfortably drink ...

You strike me as being pretty social-media savvy, or maybe it's just your obvious intelligence, so I hesitate to offer help, but if you're interested and not sure of how to open a thread on this site, gimme a holler or tag one of the mods, yes :):)
???
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,196
Location
Canada
Definitely open to recommndations if you're up to it :love::love: :) :hug::hug::hug: ....

I think some of the brands might only be available in Canada? I get 'west coast naturals' for cocoa powder. Supposedly fair-trade from Peru though I have my doubts. It's very rich and delicate tasting, doesn't seem to have the bitter flavour of the dutch processed stuff. It seems to keep for a really long time so a big bag can keep me going for a while (it only comes in big bags). I mix a tablespoon with warmed goat's milk. It's sort of like milky coffee but gentler and more chocolatey. I don't find it needs sweetening but I don't tend to like sweetened drinks anyway.

For chocolate bars I get the cheap ones from walmart because they're about half the price of others. Sometimes I'll get RitterSport(the square ones from Germany), Lindt (always good but tends to be pricey). There was a dollar store brand that was even cheaper (St. Jacquard?) but I found it quite bitter after a while so not good for acid reflux and other lurking issues.
I've had this eco brand from the health food store that was really tasty, I think it's called 'endangered species' or something, the packets have animals prints on and the proceeds go towards ecology programs. Like 4$ a bar though so that one was a treat for when I was sick from the second covid shot (really nice to be able to take comfort from that with the fluey feeling happening on the day after).

One thing to keep in mind is that cocoa has a high copper content, which relates to the other thread lately about copper that @Mary started. So that something to take into account, potentially adding into the copper/zinc balance.
Not a reason to forgo having dark chocolate though :):hug::)
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
851
Location
Northern California
Hi, @daveu

While I am unable to answer your questions about benefits and serving size of cocoa powder vs 90% dark chocolate, reading everyone's posts reminded me of a 100% dark chocolate bar that I used to be able to purchase at Trader Joe's for a mere $2.50. This brand appears to from the UK, so I thought I'd share with you.

https://www.montezumas.co.uk/absolute-black.html

I always kept 2 bars in the cupboard, but it was not my exclusive source of dark chocolate, because it is not organic. As I consume dark chocolate almost daily (bars, cocoa powder, or unsweetened drinking chocolate), I aim for organic sources the majority of the time. To keep this habit affordable, I keep my eye out for sales on my preferred high-quality brands, and stock up whenever they are discounted.

You can enjoy the best of both worlds by whisking both cocoa powder AND a small amount of grated or finely chopped 90% dark chocolate into any type of "milk" warmed up in a sauce pan, but again, I acknowledge that I am not answering your question about which form contains more epicatchin. I am just thinking that using more cocoa powder and less chocolate in this manner helps keep costs down, as well as makes a delicious treat). With ME/CFS, I look for small joys wherever I can find them.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Yeah i remember eating Cocoa Nibs and feeling better. It's basically 100% Cocoa.
You're exactly right @DrUniverse !!! It's totally unprocessed, pure, cacao bits before they've been ground up and further processed into chocolate liquor etc, and I would guess that they have to very close to 100% .... maybe take off 2 or 3% for cocoa butter.

But they're very very bitter. Definitely not a taste treat, even for confirmed dark choc lovers. However, if you're just after the health bennies, this is porbably the way to go.

Look for Cocoa or Cacao Nibs on Amazon, or wherever you avoid going an actual market ...

Good tip, Doc !!!
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,196
Location
Canada
Am just wiped and need a lie down, will respond more fully later .... but wanted to thank you, sweetie, for taking the time and trouble ....:hug::hug::hug: :cookie::cookie::cookie:

Dark chocolate is always a delightful topic. Enjoy your lie down, may there be soft clouds, cool breezes and good chocolate in the near future. :hug::hug::hug:
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
may there be soft clouds, cool breezes and good chocolate in the near future. :hug::hug::hug:
Oh, thank you sweetie :):):) ....

The only part I can vouch for is the soft clouds, which seem to hvae taken up extnded residence in my brain ..... which seems to be helped to some extent by good chocolate ....

If God hadn't wanted us to be happy, he would never have created chocolate, wine, really good beef, and bacon.

Proof positive of a benign Deity ....


I hope the same proved true for you, as well ... I mean the soft clouds, cool breezes and copious amounts of really good chocolate part. Well, the rest to, it's just that that seems to be my own personal checklist .... :hug::hug::hug:
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,196
Location
Canada
Today I bought cacoa nibs, on a whim. They are bitter, crunchy and seem to have much of the same satisfying quality of dark chocolate. I'm going to have to put the bag out of reach. They are half fat but I guess it's good fat and there is no sugar so that's a plus for when I feel like I need a lot of it.

It will be interesting to see how much of the cravings I get are just for the straight cacao and how much are for the smoothness and sweetness of a chocolate bar.

Good food and drink are the stuff of life. Anything that doesn't have some immediate downside is all the better :)
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Today I bought cacoa nibs, on a whim.
You maybe forcing me to be brave ..... I had cocoa nibs before The Troubles, and I found them interesting but uncompelling. My vote was for sweet, sweet, not overly sweet, creamy dark chocolate ....

But you're making me rethink that .....

Thank you for the update and input. I'll def let you know if I work up the courage to let go of the safe stuff and try the wild :jaw-drop::jaw-drop: :woot: :hug::hug: ....
Good food and drink are the stuff of life. Anything that doesn't have some immediate downside is all the better :)
It's what I miss most, but not as much now as I did when I was surviving on water and string cheese ... but I still long for a lovely, juicy, med rare steak. I just can't go to the market to pick one out, and DB is def not really good at that. Tho he got really good at tri-tip roasts, once I'd done one up for him the right way ....
 
Messages
59
Thank you everyone for your responses and input.

Reading everyone's replies made me realise that the terms for talking about cacao beans and cocoa powder and dark chocolate may not be universally defined which makes talking about it tricky!

For the sake of clarity for everyone, I'm going to use the phrase 'pure ground cacao bean' interchangeably with 'pure cocoa powder'. I realise this is not strictly true but for my purposes I'm ok using them interchangeably.

@pamojja, thank you very much for this link: http://phenol-explorer.eu/contents/polyphenol/125. I was very interested to read that in their testing "cocoa powder" had twice as much epicatchin as "dark chocolate". Of course, we don't know what brands they tested to get those results.

I have purchased 'Belbake Cocoa Powder' (barcode number 4056489232872) from the supermarket chain Lidl (please see attached photos) here in the UK. I reached out to them on Twitter to ask them "what percentage of this product is pure cacao?" and they said "The supplier has confirmed the item is 100% Cacao."

1629197276224.png


So assuming their supplier is telling the truth, it looks like I have a good source of pure cocoa powder which will be cheaper for me to consume than dark chocolate :thumbsup:

Next step: finding an affordable organic 100% pure cocoa powder I can buy here in the UK!
 

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YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Of course, we don't know what brands they tested to get those results.
I agree !!! Given the multiple confusions just in thus thread, it's really hard to now what they're considering 'cocoa' or the processes of their testing, or even what products they tested .... it's a cold cold world out there ....
I have purchased 'Belbake Cocoa Powder' (barcode number 4056489232872) from the supermarket chain Lidl (please see attached photos) here in the UK.
I'm so glad that you found something that suits your purpose @daveu :):):) ... maybe when you feel adventurous (and I'm looking at myself here, too), you might want to try cocoa nibs, which as @DrUniverse and @L'engle pointed out is actually totally pure, 100%, absolutely unadulterated cacao ...


On the other hand if what you're using works, why fix it ???
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
@pamojja, thank you very much for this link: http://phenol-explorer.eu/contents/polyphenol/125. I was very interested to read that in their testing "cocoa powder" had twice as much epicatchin as "dark chocolate". Of course, we don't know what brands they tested to get those results.

They tested 10 different brands of cocoa powder, the scentifc sources specifed in these 3 references: http://phenol-explorer.eu/contents/show/2/125/536#references
Code:
                                 mean content  - min  - max  - SD  - n   -  N   - number of references
Cocoa - Chocolate                            
Chocolate, dark                  70.36   mg/100 g FW - 32.74 - 125.00 - 29.54 - 16 - 22  - 3       
Chocolate, milk                  14.58   mg/100 g FW - 12.49 -  24.00 -  4.76 -  5 - 11  - 2    
Cocoa - Cocoa powders                            
Cocoa, powder                    158.30   mg/100 g FW - 63.00 - 330.00 - 86.33 - 10 - 10  - 3

The cocoa powder tested with the lowest content had only 63mg Epicatechin per 100g, the one with the highest even 330 mg/100g. And the mean content of all 10 powders tested was 158.3 mg/100g. The mean Epicatechin content of 22 different dark chocolates was at 70.36 mg/100g at even less than half only.

What this means for a consumer taking only 1 brand of dark chocolate and 1 brand of cocoa powder - in the worst case, one could only get the lowest content of Epicatechin as in above tests (ie. 32.74 and 63.00 mg/100 respectively).

That isn't too bad, but for getting more I too shop around and buy at least 3 different brands of each, over time.

I reached out to them on Twitter to ask them "what percentage of this product is pure cacao?" and they said "The supplier has confirmed the item is 100% Cacao."

Plain cocoa/cacao beans contain the following according to wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_bean

The cocoa bean or simply cocoa (/ˈkoʊ.koʊ/), which is also called the cacao bean or cacao (/kəˈkaʊ/),[1] is the dried and fully fermented seed of Theobroma cacao, from which cocoa solids (a mixture of nonfat substances) and cocoa butter (the fat) can be extracted. Cocoa beans are the basis of chocolate, and Mesoamerican foods including tejate, an indigenous Mexican drink that also includes maize.

Therefore pure cocoa beans contain about 45% of cocoa solids and about 55% fats, to make up the 100% of pure cocoa.
As already pointed out pure cocoa powder contains about 86% cocoa solids and 14% cocoa butter to make up the 100% pure cocoa.
While for example 90% dark chocolate contains only 90% pure cocoa, consisting itself again of 45/45% cocoa solids and cocoa butter to add up to 90%.

Therefore the crucal differentation: Epcatechin is only found in the cocoa solid portion, but none in the cocoa butter portion. Though of course techncally both is correctly 100% from pure cocoa beans.

And therefore again: Epicatechin is found in cocoa solids portion at only 84% of pure cocoa powder, about 45% in cocoa nibs, and 45% in dark chocolate only. The remaining pure cocoa is only the cocoa potion or cocoa butter, not containing any Epicatechin.

Next step: finding an affordable organic 100% pure cocoa powder I can buy here in the UK!

Also the one you found from Lidl is duched with potassium bicarbonate, which always reduces the Epicatechin content a bid again.
 
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Viala

Senior Member
Messages
639
@pamojja I see you know this topic pretty well. What about cocoa powder in hot water? Will epicatechin be lost in hot temperatures? I drink cocoa in hot water daily, no sugar, just pure cocoa powder, I like the taste of it but maybe it's helping with something else as well. It's a good alternative for coffee or tea and I can't eat chocolate.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
They tested 10 different brands of cocoa powder, the scentifc sources specifed in these 3 references: http://phenol-explorer.eu/contents/show/2/125/536#references
Code:
Unfortunately, they were totally blind tests, so their value to the average consumer is about as useful as if they tested multiple different treatments for a specific cancer but didnt reveal the drugs used in each instance, and jst gave the parameters of the patient's improvement or decline.

All we know is pretty much what we went in knowing: that some brands are better than others, and cocoa powders are probably better than choc bars and we should eat some of one thing on Day 1 and some of the other on Day 2 ....

And all of this maks me wonder why such limited transparency ??? If we knew what brand tested well, it wouldn't be difficult to compare labels and see how our brand holds up to the best of the testings ....
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
What about cocoa powder in hot water? Will epicatechin be lost in hot temperatures? I drink cocoa in hot water daily, no sugar, just pure cocoa powder,

Haven't thought about that. But must assume not much different to the catechins in green tea, also usually in hot water.

Screenshot_20210817-212032~2.png


EC in above chart is Epichatechin, and as the other catechins does decrease with water of higher temperatures and longer times exposure. 82° celcius seems to be the cut-off, where decreases are larger.


Plants like cacao are living beings, and therefore each of them have different levels of Epicatechin in them. Just as humans might have a normal range of 200-900 pg/ml of Vitamin B12 in their serum. And some even below or above that.

Same with plant-products, not one cocoa bean will have the same content then the next, or the next plant, or in the next seasons with different enviromental growth factors. For example in this study they tested 11 different cocoa powders available in Spain and found the 'normal range' of Epicatechin therein:

(-)-Epicatechin was in the range of 116.02–730.26 µg/g, whereas (+)-catechin was in the range of 81.40–447.62 µg/g in the commercial cocoa products studied

So therefore large producers usually mix ingredients from different farms, to average variations out and get more consistant quality. The nutrients content of natural products, like Epicatechin in cocoa products, will still wary from year to year, even with exactly the same brand.

But above study points to even more variation through the production process, like dutching, which appearently decreased the Epicatechin content by a whooping 67% in cocoa powders in the same study. Such a large decline also I wasn't aware of: https://www.worldcocoafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/files_mf/andreslacueva2008.pdf

Abstract
Major brands of cocoa powder products present in the Spanish market were analyzed for monomeric flavanols [(+)-catechin and (−)-epicatechin] and flavonols [quercetin-3-glucuronide, quercetin-3-glucoside (isoquercitrin), quercetin-3-arabinoside, and quercetin]. In addition, the influence of the manufacturing process of cocoa powder products, in particular, the alkalinization treatment (Dutching), on the original content of these flavonoids has been studied. (−)-Epicatechin was in the range of 116.02–730.26 µg/g, whereas (+)-catechin was in the range of 81.40–447.62 µg/g in the commercial cocoa products studied. Among flavonols, quercetin-3-arabinoside and isoquercitrin were the major flavonols in the cocoa powder products studied, ranging from 2.10 to 40.33 µg/g and from 3.97 to 42.74 µg/g, respectively, followed by quercetin-3-glucuronide (0.13–9.88 µg/g) and quercetin aglycone (0.28–3.25 µg/g). To our knowledge, these results are the first quantitative data in relation to the content of individualized flavonol derivatives in commercial cocoa powder products. The alkalinization treatment resulted in 60% loss of the mean total flavonoid content. Among flavanols, (−)-epicatechin presented a larger decline (67%, as a mean percentage difference) than (+)-catechin (38%), probably because of its epimerization into (−)-catechin, a less bioavailable form of catechin. A decline was also confirmed for di-, tri-, and tetrameric procyanidins. In the case of flavonols, quercetin presented the highest loss (86%), whereas quercetin-3-glucuronide, quercetin-3-arabinoside, and isoquercitrin showed a similar decrease (58, 62, and 61%, respectively). It is concluded that the large decrease found in the flavonoid content of natural cocoa powder, together with the observed change in the monomeric flavanol profile that results from the alkalinization treatment, could affect the antioxidant properties and the polyphenol biovailability of cocoa powder products.
(emphasis by me)

All we know is pretty much what we went in knowing: that some brands are better than others, and cocoa powders are probably better than choc bars

Non-dutched cocoa powders are not probably, but certainly much better than any dark chocolate. Only better taste its the other way round. However, I use about 20g in my morning muesli (berries, nuts, seeds..) sweetened with stevia extract. And that tastes as good, that I easily can eat a whole bowl to satiation.

If we knew what brand tested well, it wouldn't be difficult to compare labels and see how our brand holds up to the best of the testings ....

But since you still seem to somewhat doubt the superiority of plain cocoa powder, despite all the evidence of in average double the Epicatichin content, here you go - the hit list of dark chocolates: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2014/628196/tab5/

Code:
Product     Serving Size     Catechin     Epicatechin[32]
Cocoa Powder (Natsol Laboratories)     N/A     0.20%     0.28%
Lindt Excellence, 90% cocoa     40     6.04 mg     17.32 mg
Lindt Excellence, 85% cocoa     40     4.80 mg     22.76 mg
Lindt Excellence, 70% cocoa     40     7.84 mg     28.56 mg
Ghirardelli Chocolate, 86% cacao     45     4.50 mg     23.85 mg
Ghirardelli Chocolate, 72% cacao     38     5.78 mg     27.70 mg
Ghirardelli Chocolate, 60% cacao     38     4.79 mg     17.78 mg
Godiva Chocolatier, 85% cacao     40     5.20 mg     31.68 mg
Safeway Select chocolate, 85% cacao     40     4.76 mg     10.52 mg
Safeway Select chocolate, 72% cacao     40     4.84 mg     14.64 mg
Green & Black’s chocolate, 50% cocoa     40     3.28 mg     11.92 mg
Bournville Cranberry chocolate, 50% cocoa     33     1.49 mg     3.76 mg
Bournville Rich Cocoa chocolate, 50% cocoa     33     1.09 mg     3.60 mg

Interestingly, Lindt 70% contains more than Lindt 85 or 90%. And the reason its the only of the 3 not dutched, which usually isn't disclosed on the packaging.

However that may be, the best dark chocolate (of the harvest that year of above study) - Godiva - would give me still only about 16mg of Epicatechin per day for the 20g I eat each day, While the worst pure cocoa powder at daily the same amount already 23mg. And also at best - for not having a apple to pear comparison - a whooping 146mg Epichatechin in just 20g of cocoa powder.

Anyway I take both, 20g dark chocolate only for its taste (and minimizing my only source of sugar and excessive costs), and 20g of pure cocoa powder for its whooping Epicatechin content, additional to is taste.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
But since you still seem to somewhat doubt the superiority of plain cocoa powder, despite all the evidence of in average double the Epicatichin content, here you go - the hit list of dark chocolates: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2014/628196/tab5/
Great chart, thanks for posting it @pamojja ..... it confirms my belief that Godiva, altho not as good as it was before it was gobbled up by a Turkish conglomerate and a So Korean holding company, is still the food of the Gods. Who are pretty much the only people who can afford it on a regular basis ...

Hindawi always has the coolest, most unexpected research ....
However that may be, the best dark chocolate (of the harvest that year of above study) - Godiva - would give me still only about 16mg of Epicatechin per day for the 20g I eat each day, While the worst pure cocoa powder at daily the same amount already 23mg. And also at best - for not having a apple to pear comparison - a whooping 146mg Epichatechin in just 20g of cocoa powder.
I'd just regard the the epicatechines as an added bonus and focus on the heavenly taste and mouth-feel of the chocolate itself ...
Anyway I take both, 20g dark chocolate only for its taste (and minimizing my only source of sugar and excessive costs), and 20g of pure cocoa powder for its whooping Epicatechin content, additional to is taste.
Makes sense. But do include a bit of Godiva, cause the soul needs a little treat from time to time, too :angel::angel::angel: :hug: ....