Hi all,
This my first post here and it starts with an apology: I'm sorry it won't be an upbeat one! I hope to make up for this in future writings, and I look forward to introducing myself properly shortly.
This concerns a point which, in 4 months of following this forum, I feel needs to be urgently addressed.
The topic regards the people here which I'll term the "risk-free crowd". These are the people who say things such as: "I take Vitamin X, and you can take as much as you want because there are NO BAD EFFECTS!"
This isn't just wrong, it's potentially lethal.
The reality is that there are extremely few things which you can take large doses of, with few ill effects. Even a few kilograms of carrots will kill you. Almost every single instance I can think of, where people have said "taking XXXX in large doses is fine", is absolutely, totally wrong.
An example that came up just this week: leucine, arginine and beta-alanine. These are popular amongst weightlifters, and increasingly adopted by MTHFR and CFS sufferers to help with energy and endurance.
A weightlifting friend (let's call him Mr. Muscle) was taking vast amounts of these two proteins in "pre-workout" shakes. His belief that it was helping him build muscle and help endurance. The reality was that his high doses were ALSO causing premature ageing (leucine), neurotoxicity (beta-alanine) and huge amounts of oxidative damage (beta-alanine and arginine), as well as actually harming his nitric oxide levels (arginine). He was basically fast-tracking his own death.
Why? Well - leucine stimulates the mTOR pathway, which is mostly involved in signaling the body's cells to divide more rapidly. Will this help build muscle? Sure. But: can you think of any other processes that you DON'T want which are a result of increased cell division? I'll give you a hint: cancer and ageing.
And indeed, leucine accelerates both of these. In fact, cancer survivors are often placed on low-leucine diets; and many chemotherapy drugs (e.g. rapamycin) directly antagonise mTOR in their function. Despite leucine having muscle-building qualities, it is absolutely not recommended for older people or cancer survivors. In fact, it's probably not good for anyone to take in excess of the amount normally required by your body.
However, not enough leucine is also an issue. It will result in your not having much muscle bulk - and this (sarcopenia) is a major factor in mortality with age.
Does this sound like a lose-lose? Well, it kind of is. But that's pretty much how life works in general. Too much, or too little, of almost anything will cause harm. We use an expression in bioscience: "the dose makes the poison". It's quite true for any drug or vitamin or plant or mineral I can think of. The only way to win, is to be in the middle - not at the extremes.
And in fact, your body has evolved over millions of years to place you directly at the "sweet spot". Occasionally it will make small mistakes, such as with MTHFR and other genetic issues. This should be corrected - but carefully.
Almost everything you take will impact another biological pathway, elsewhere. The metabolism and excretion of almost anything will always require extra effort from certain organs, the excessive use of other co-factors and vitamins in breaking it down, and so on. THERE ARE NO "FREE WINS". If there were, you would almost certainly have evolved to take advantage of it already.
Before you make a change, you should know everything about the knock-on impacts. You must balance everything: all the biological processes it impacts, AND the things they depend on, and the things THEY depend on.
This takes a lot of knowledge. And if you haven't got it, you're putting yourself at risk, and you should instead go and ask someone who DOES have that knowledge.
This goes double for ME/CFS sufferers since their bodies are, by definition, already less able to cope with added stresses and vitamin imbalances.
Some of the most worrying examples I see on these boards involve people telling others to "add more manganese". Yes, manganese is essential. Yes, many sufferers may have impaired absorption, or require more of it to boost a certain function. But manganese is also famous for another reason - it is a powerful poison. In fact, for almost everyone, too MUCH manganese (often from industrial pollution) is the issue, rather than too little.
The effects of manganese poisoning occur gradually but are devasatating. Parkinsons'-like neurotoxicity is one. However, many people here would probably mistake such symptoms as "oh, I have trouble generating enough dopamine" and add even more manganese into the mix.
The recommended maximum intake for magnanese is 11mg per day. Looking on the back of my bottle of manganese supplements, I note that this number is, in fact, the dose contained in each pill. So by taking one pill a day (as per the label) I'm already at the maximum, and I haven't even taken into account the amount I obtain from my food and my water. It would not be a stretch to imagine that other people, who've been encouraged to "increase manganese intake", might take two of these pills per day... or more.
The result is likely to be, well... if it doesn't kill you, you'll sure wish you were dead. And by the time you notice symptoms it'll generally be too late to stop the damage.
Remember an RDI is a guideline, and often a poor one at that. RDIs are based on the "average" person. Guess what? If you're sick, you're probably not going to fit into that bell curve very well. Are you taking into account your existing health conditions?
For example: my mother shares defective BHMT genes with me. I take betaine (as TMG), which helps. This is supported by a huge range of research papers. So, it stands to reason she should take TMG as well, right?
Wrong. She's just had part of her pancreas removed due to methylation-related cancer. In fact, she has to take antacids to keep her stomach acids low - to avoid inflaming the surgical site and to avoid stressing the pancreas, which must produce pepsin to eliminate the stomach acid. Since TMG directly upregulates stomach acid production, it is a very bad idea for her to take this, despite her long-term acid reflux issues.
On the other hand, the low stomach acid does probably mean she'll have to increase rates of vitamins and minerals which absorb poorly in low-acid environments. She'll also have to decrease those that absorb well in those environments. And by how much, exactly? Well, even I can't say for sure... and I know her case and her biology very well. The odds of an RDI or a web forum post getting her "dose" right is... pretty darn slim.
The same applies for selenium, potassium, and a whole lot of other things which are commonly mentioned as therapies.
It especially applies to common herbal supplements which can be used in therapy - things like feverfew, or rhodiola, have a spectacular range of effects far beyond just the methylation cycle. For example, they're both potent blood thinners. I also see thyme oil and oregano oil mentioned a lot - were you aware that these are both powerful liver toxins? Those who like drinking buckets of green tea - were you aware that's also killing your liver AND giving yuou fluoridosis, as well as being a powerful DNA demethylating agent? You might want to reconsider your daily matcha habit...
The list goes on. Too much potassium is called hyperkalemia, and can cause fatal heart arrythmia. Potassium also requires magnesium to be balanced against it. Magnesium levels affect calcium and zinc absorption. Those, in turn, affect a host of other things. Popping a bunch of potassium pills - without taking care of the knock-on impacts - is likely to do you way more harm than good.
I would not be surprised if many of the people on this forum are victims of their own self-medication. I can't blame you; I know what it is to be sick and desperate. You'll try anything... and if it helps a bit, there's a temptation to take much more of it in the hope it'll work even better. But the odds are: it won't.
In summary: there is always a downside. Make sure you know what that downside is before you reach for your pills and potions. Just because you read it on a website, or because it's on the racks in the health food store, or recommended by friends and naturopaths... does NOT mean it's safe for you to use.
Tread carefully, and be safe!
References:
This my first post here and it starts with an apology: I'm sorry it won't be an upbeat one! I hope to make up for this in future writings, and I look forward to introducing myself properly shortly.
This concerns a point which, in 4 months of following this forum, I feel needs to be urgently addressed.
The topic regards the people here which I'll term the "risk-free crowd". These are the people who say things such as: "I take Vitamin X, and you can take as much as you want because there are NO BAD EFFECTS!"
This isn't just wrong, it's potentially lethal.
The reality is that there are extremely few things which you can take large doses of, with few ill effects. Even a few kilograms of carrots will kill you. Almost every single instance I can think of, where people have said "taking XXXX in large doses is fine", is absolutely, totally wrong.
An example that came up just this week: leucine, arginine and beta-alanine. These are popular amongst weightlifters, and increasingly adopted by MTHFR and CFS sufferers to help with energy and endurance.
A weightlifting friend (let's call him Mr. Muscle) was taking vast amounts of these two proteins in "pre-workout" shakes. His belief that it was helping him build muscle and help endurance. The reality was that his high doses were ALSO causing premature ageing (leucine), neurotoxicity (beta-alanine) and huge amounts of oxidative damage (beta-alanine and arginine), as well as actually harming his nitric oxide levels (arginine). He was basically fast-tracking his own death.
Why? Well - leucine stimulates the mTOR pathway, which is mostly involved in signaling the body's cells to divide more rapidly. Will this help build muscle? Sure. But: can you think of any other processes that you DON'T want which are a result of increased cell division? I'll give you a hint: cancer and ageing.
And indeed, leucine accelerates both of these. In fact, cancer survivors are often placed on low-leucine diets; and many chemotherapy drugs (e.g. rapamycin) directly antagonise mTOR in their function. Despite leucine having muscle-building qualities, it is absolutely not recommended for older people or cancer survivors. In fact, it's probably not good for anyone to take in excess of the amount normally required by your body.
However, not enough leucine is also an issue. It will result in your not having much muscle bulk - and this (sarcopenia) is a major factor in mortality with age.
Does this sound like a lose-lose? Well, it kind of is. But that's pretty much how life works in general. Too much, or too little, of almost anything will cause harm. We use an expression in bioscience: "the dose makes the poison". It's quite true for any drug or vitamin or plant or mineral I can think of. The only way to win, is to be in the middle - not at the extremes.
And in fact, your body has evolved over millions of years to place you directly at the "sweet spot". Occasionally it will make small mistakes, such as with MTHFR and other genetic issues. This should be corrected - but carefully.
Almost everything you take will impact another biological pathway, elsewhere. The metabolism and excretion of almost anything will always require extra effort from certain organs, the excessive use of other co-factors and vitamins in breaking it down, and so on. THERE ARE NO "FREE WINS". If there were, you would almost certainly have evolved to take advantage of it already.
Before you make a change, you should know everything about the knock-on impacts. You must balance everything: all the biological processes it impacts, AND the things they depend on, and the things THEY depend on.
This takes a lot of knowledge. And if you haven't got it, you're putting yourself at risk, and you should instead go and ask someone who DOES have that knowledge.
This goes double for ME/CFS sufferers since their bodies are, by definition, already less able to cope with added stresses and vitamin imbalances.
Some of the most worrying examples I see on these boards involve people telling others to "add more manganese". Yes, manganese is essential. Yes, many sufferers may have impaired absorption, or require more of it to boost a certain function. But manganese is also famous for another reason - it is a powerful poison. In fact, for almost everyone, too MUCH manganese (often from industrial pollution) is the issue, rather than too little.
The effects of manganese poisoning occur gradually but are devasatating. Parkinsons'-like neurotoxicity is one. However, many people here would probably mistake such symptoms as "oh, I have trouble generating enough dopamine" and add even more manganese into the mix.
The recommended maximum intake for magnanese is 11mg per day. Looking on the back of my bottle of manganese supplements, I note that this number is, in fact, the dose contained in each pill. So by taking one pill a day (as per the label) I'm already at the maximum, and I haven't even taken into account the amount I obtain from my food and my water. It would not be a stretch to imagine that other people, who've been encouraged to "increase manganese intake", might take two of these pills per day... or more.
The result is likely to be, well... if it doesn't kill you, you'll sure wish you were dead. And by the time you notice symptoms it'll generally be too late to stop the damage.
Remember an RDI is a guideline, and often a poor one at that. RDIs are based on the "average" person. Guess what? If you're sick, you're probably not going to fit into that bell curve very well. Are you taking into account your existing health conditions?
For example: my mother shares defective BHMT genes with me. I take betaine (as TMG), which helps. This is supported by a huge range of research papers. So, it stands to reason she should take TMG as well, right?
Wrong. She's just had part of her pancreas removed due to methylation-related cancer. In fact, she has to take antacids to keep her stomach acids low - to avoid inflaming the surgical site and to avoid stressing the pancreas, which must produce pepsin to eliminate the stomach acid. Since TMG directly upregulates stomach acid production, it is a very bad idea for her to take this, despite her long-term acid reflux issues.
On the other hand, the low stomach acid does probably mean she'll have to increase rates of vitamins and minerals which absorb poorly in low-acid environments. She'll also have to decrease those that absorb well in those environments. And by how much, exactly? Well, even I can't say for sure... and I know her case and her biology very well. The odds of an RDI or a web forum post getting her "dose" right is... pretty darn slim.
The same applies for selenium, potassium, and a whole lot of other things which are commonly mentioned as therapies.
It especially applies to common herbal supplements which can be used in therapy - things like feverfew, or rhodiola, have a spectacular range of effects far beyond just the methylation cycle. For example, they're both potent blood thinners. I also see thyme oil and oregano oil mentioned a lot - were you aware that these are both powerful liver toxins? Those who like drinking buckets of green tea - were you aware that's also killing your liver AND giving yuou fluoridosis, as well as being a powerful DNA demethylating agent? You might want to reconsider your daily matcha habit...
The list goes on. Too much potassium is called hyperkalemia, and can cause fatal heart arrythmia. Potassium also requires magnesium to be balanced against it. Magnesium levels affect calcium and zinc absorption. Those, in turn, affect a host of other things. Popping a bunch of potassium pills - without taking care of the knock-on impacts - is likely to do you way more harm than good.
I would not be surprised if many of the people on this forum are victims of their own self-medication. I can't blame you; I know what it is to be sick and desperate. You'll try anything... and if it helps a bit, there's a temptation to take much more of it in the hope it'll work even better. But the odds are: it won't.
In summary: there is always a downside. Make sure you know what that downside is before you reach for your pills and potions. Just because you read it on a website, or because it's on the racks in the health food store, or recommended by friends and naturopaths... does NOT mean it's safe for you to use.
Tread carefully, and be safe!
References:
- http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2013/05/is-beta-alanine-dangerous-neurotoxin-or.html
- http://www.lmreview.com/articles/vi...rally-with-l-arginine-and-citrulline-part-II/
- http://www.jneurosci.org/content/10/12/3970.short
- http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/91/1/248.full
- http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/113/13/1708.full
- http://www.medicalinsider.com/cardiac3.html
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17613433
- http://books.google.ca/books?id=AwzGfPXtbKgC&pg=PT157&lpg=PT157&dq=l-arginine uncoupled enos&source=bl&ots=-_5mHRVCax&sig=K1O_03xtTXK6FdVl5sl8JpA5tkk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UARQVK_QFsv2yQSs4oGIAg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=l-arginine uncoupled enos&f=false
- http://www.cell.com/cancer-cell/abstract/S1535-6108(07)00151-1
- https://www.fightaging.org/archives...thing-of-a-hot-topic-in-longevity-science.php
- http://www.biooncology.com/therapeutic-targets/mtor
- http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v1/n7/full/100070.html
- http://www.welding-rod-dangers.com/illness/illness_manganism.htm
- http://www.economist.com/news/scien...nganese-and-parkinsons-disease-subtle-effects
- http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov/category-details?id=239&table=tbldiseases
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15617053
- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lt.21021/pdf
- http://www.today.com/health/five-surprising-herbs-can-damage-your-liver-1D79828098
- http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11786-green-tea-can-be-harmful-in-large-quantities.html
- http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/u...r-is-tied-to-dietary-aids.html?pagewanted=all
- http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/oregano-uses-and-risks
- https://www.standardprocess.com/Med...talog-Files/contraindicationscautions0708.pdf
- http://examine.com/supplements/Rhodiola+Rosea/
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