BCG Vaccine for COVID

[Rebeccare]

I was recently reading some news indicating that the BCG vaccine, and old vaccine for tuberculosis, may provide some protection against COVID-19 by giving the immune system a general boost.

This newspaper article cites a study (here's a link to it for those of you who are members of ResearchGate) which found that countries which have mandatory BCG vaccination programs had a mortality rate ten times lower than that of countries which did not. It's unclear from the newspaper article whether the vaccine affected the rate at which people were infected, or only the rate at which they developed serious symptoms that resulted in death. If those numbers hold up to scrutiny, it's pretty dramatic. And it gives me a bit of hope for the world, since developing countries with medical systems that would be quickly overwhelmed by an epidemic are the places most likely to have universal BCG vaccination.

This other article in the New York Times (which might be behind a paywall if you're not a subscriber) is a bit more restrained in its optimism:

Not everyone is convinced B.C.G. holds much promise. Dr. Domenico Accili, an endocrinologist at Columbia University, said he thought efforts to use the vaccine against the coronavirus sound “a bit like magical thinking.”

While acknowledging that B.C.G. is “a non-specific booster of the immune system,” he said, “we should be able to deploy a more tailored approach.”

I thought this might be of interest to us partly since I can see in a search of PR that researchers at Mass General Hospital in Boston led by Dr. Donna Faustman (who is quoted in the NY Times article) were studying whether this vaccine might help people with fibromyalgia a few years ago.

I was also curious about whether this vaccine would be safe for people with ME/CFS, in spite of the fact that it had been studied for fibromyalgia. In the Times article, they say:

One question is what effect the vaccine may have in patients whose immune systems overreact to the coronavirus, resulting in what are called cytokine storms. Dr. Randy Cron, an expert on cytokine storms at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said it was impossible to know.

I think part of the concern is that this is a live vaccine, although there are other common live vaccines.

What do you all think? I'm not very good with science, so I'm interested to hear what those of you who are have to say!

 

[andyguitar]

Well the UK scientist involved- paul hegarty- is a well qualified person. As to the results of the research I am amazed that it has not got much media attention. Certainly something the scientific community needs to have a close look at. Well done for turning it up @RebeccaRe have a bit of this

 

[Judee]

UPMC doctors in Pa. say they’ve developed a coronavirus vaccine:
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/04/upmc-doctors-say-theyve-developed-coronavirus-vaccine.html

 

[andyguitar]

The most positive thing about what the scientists at UPMC have got is that it can be produced in large quantities quickly. It also sounds like the have much expertise in the field of corona vaccines. Bit of cake for you @Judee

 

[Rebeccare]

have a bit of this

Don't mind if I do!

@Judee that's wonderful news!

I'm still interested the BCG vaccine, though, for a couple of reasons. As the articles say, BCG is not a coronavirus vaccine (I'm not sure if it prevents people from getting coronavirus or just helps them to have a more mild case). But as a vaccine that has been in existence for a while, I don't think it would need to be tested which would take away a huge delay in deploying it. We also know its side effects tend to be, and it seems like the majority of people respond well to it.

And beyond its possible application in our current health crisis, I'm also interested in its potential benefit for people with autoimmune disorders. This is something I hadn't heard of before now.

 

[andyguitar]

I'm still interested the BCG vaccine, though, for a couple of reasons. As the articles say, BCG is not a coronavirus vaccine (I'm not sure if it prevents people from getting coronavirus or just helps them to have a more mild case).

Both the incidence (number of people infected) and the mortality rate are lower in the countries that have an active BCG program.

 

[Hufsamor]

I have no news, but I would love a bit of

 

[Rebeccare]

I'll be happy to share with you @Hufsamor! Pull up a chair and I'll cut you a slice! And maybe even pour you some

 

[Hufsamor]

the BCG vaccine

I would love this to be correct, as we all got the bcg vaccine in Norway when I grew up.

But I'm not convinced. I believe Norway and sweden have had more or less the same kind of vaccination program when it comes to bcg, but for the moment, out of 1 mill inhabitants there are 47 deaths from corona in Sweden compared to 14 in Norway.

It seems to me that the decision on how to respond to the corona crisis is very important....in particular in the beginning, before it spreads to much.

Also, we are very restrictive as to the use of antibiotics....a Norwegian doctor/ scientist said that nobody actually dies from corona....they die from the -aaarg!!!! I don't have enough English words today---they die from ....eg heart attack if the heart can't take the struggle, or maybe--"following sickness " - I don't know the English expression--you're body are worn down and you get an infection or something, and if you can't use antibiotics, you might die. When you could have lived if the strains of bacteria wasn't antibiotics resistant. Or, if you didn't have corona, your body would fix the problem itself.
Italy faces a LOT of antibiotic resistance.

(as for the question- would it be a good idea to take this vaccine?
I don't know....as far as I remember, one or two kids got rather sick each year from the vaccine and was away from school for a week or so. But I might as well remember it wrong)

 

[Hufsamor]

@RebeccaRe
Oh, thanks for the and the .
I'll bring some if you fancy

 

[andyguitar]

I don't know the English expression--you're body are worn down and you get an infection or something, and if you can't use antibiotics, you might die.

We call it a secondary infection. these dont always work on them.

 

[Hufsamor]

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/23/antibiotic-resistance-hidden-threat-lurking-behind-covid-19/

The new coronavirus is no exception. Already, some studies have found that 1 in 7 patients hospitalized with Covid-19 has acquired a dangerous secondary bacterial infection, and 50% of patients who have died had such infections. The challenge of antibiotic resistance could become an enormous force of additional sickness and death across our health system as the toll of coronavirus pneumonia stretches critical care units beyond their capacity.

(Sorry Rebecca, don't mean to hijack your thread...I'll leave it with this )

 

[Judee]

Also, we are very restrictive as to the use of antibiotics....a Norwegian doctor/ scientist said that nobody actually dies from corona....they die from the -aaarg!!!! I don't have enough English words today---they die from ....eg heart attack if the heart can't take the struggle, or maybe--"following sickness " - I don't know the English expression--you're body are worn down and you get an infection or something, and if you can't use antibiotics, you might die. When you could have lived if the strains of bacteria wasn't antibiotics resistant. Or, if you didn't have corona, your body would fix the problem itself.

The one I'm reading about is Pneumonia. Was that the word you were looking for, @Hufsamor?

Edit: Oops: Sorry. You already found the word in the last post. I just noticed. (Me and my silly skim reading. )

 

[Hufsamor]

@Judee
Secondary infection was the answer.
But that secondary infection could have been pneumonia
So thank you anyway, for taking the trouble to help me out

 

[andyguitar]

But that secondary infection could have been pneumonia

Pneumonia is not a secondary infection. It's something that can be caused by a secondary infection. Can also be caused directly by covid.

 

[Hufsamor]

Ah, i see!

 

[Hip]

Below is a map of BCG vaccination status of various countries. As you can see, Italy is one of the countries which never had a universal BCG vaccination program, and Italy has a very high coronavirus death rate.

But the US and the Netherlands also never had a universal BCG vaccination program.

So if this theory that the BCG vaccination greatly protects against coronavirus death, then you might expect the death rate in the US and the Netherlands to be as high as Italy's.

Map displaying BCG vaccination policy by country

A: The country currently has universal BCG vaccination program.
B: The country used to recommend BCG vaccination for everyone, but currently does not.
C: The country never had universal BCG vaccination programs.

Source: The BCG World Atlas: A Database of Global BCG Vaccination Policies and Practices


Many countries began BCG vaccination programs in the 1940s–1980s.

Nine countries have ceased universal BCG vaccination programs; Spain and Denmark were among the first, stopping in 1981 and 1986, respectively, while Austria and Germany had stopped by 1990 and 1998. The remaining countries, including the Isle of Man, Slovenia, UK, Finland, and France, all ceased their BCG vaccination campaigns between 2005 and 2007.

The United States and Canada do not have a universal BCG vaccination program, and only recommend BCG for high-risk groups. Though Canada varies by state.



More info on the BCG vaccination programs in different countries in this Wikipedia article.

 

[Hufsamor]

BCG-vaksine ble tatt inn i det norske barnevaksinasjonsprogrammet i 1947 og ble da gitt i 14-årsalderen. BCG-vaksinasjon var påbudt ved lov fram til 1995 da den ble frivillig. Allmenn BCG-vaksinasjon av ungdom med lav risiko for tuberkulose opphørte etter skoleåret 2008/2009, mens vaksinasjon av spedbarn i risikogrupper ble videreført.

@Hip
This map is not completely correct.
Both Sweden and Norway used to give the bcg to everyone, but neither do anymore. (Only for high-risk groups)
On the other hand, they stopped the vaccination program in 2009, and as every norwegian citizen before that time got it at age 14, it means veryone above the age of 24 will have been vaccinated. Meaning, everyone in the age that ends hospitalised or even dead, are vaccinated.

- but... if the information about France and Spain are correct, the same thing would apply to them- every adult above the age of 28- 30 have been vaccinated. And those are the two European countries with the worst scenario.

 

[Hip]

This map is not completely correct.
Both Sweden and Norway used to give the bcg to everyone, but neither do anymore.

Thanks for pointing that out. The Wikipedia article seems to have it correct, as they state:

Norway: In Norway the BCG vaccine was mandatory from 1947 to 1995

 

[Hip]

information about France and Spain are correct, the same thing would apply to them- every adult above the age of 28- 30 have been vaccinated.

Spain stopped universally giving the BCG in 1981, so the oldest people in Spain without a BCG would be 39 years old. But everyone older than that would have had the BCG. So if the BCG does offer a protective effect, Spain would be mostly protected, because it is the older people who are statistically much more at risk from coronavirus death.

France stopped universally giving the BCG only recently in 2007, so nearly all the population have had the BCG.