BCAAs reducing PEM

[lllamamom]

Hi @Mary. Do you take the bcaa all the time or just when you are in a crash or expecting PEM to hit? At weekend I ended up in a situation where I was forced to use energy I didn’t have. I tried 1000mg 3xday in the hope of avoiding or ameliorating PEM and horrible crash. I think they may have helped. Just wondering if they work better if saved for emergencies? I have sometimes felt that this is the case with other supplements particularly D ribose.

That's interesting, TreePerson! What are others experience? After a week of BCAA 3 x d, and D ribose, I couldn't tell much difference. I had read in another thread that a small dose of D ribose before bed might help with sleep--so tried that the last 3 nights. It did seem to help the first two nights, but last night--well, the wind gusts hit 50 mph, so nothing would have helped

 

[TreePerson]

That's interesting, TreePerson! What are others experience? After a week of BCAA 3 x d, and D ribose, I couldn't tell much difference. I had read in another thread that a small dose of D ribose before bed might help with sleep--so tried that the last 3 nights. It did seem to help the first two nights, but last night--well, the wind gusts hit 50 mph, so nothing would have helped

Oh yes we have had wind like that lately. It also triggered the monstrously bright security lights in a neighbouring school so all my senses were attacked!
The first time I took D ribose I felt a big lift within about an hour. But now it hardly does anything. So I tend to scale it down in my better phases and keep it for crashes.
Before Christmas L Carnatine was helping and now that’s worn off too. I have heard others say the same that the body seems to adjust to the supplements and you lose the benefits. But then again I know all the people who take them regularly and swear by them.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Mary. Do you take the bcaa all the time or just when you are in a crash or expecting PEM to hit? At weekend I ended up in a situation where I was forced to use energy I didn’t have. I tried 1000mg 3xday in the hope of avoiding or ameliorating PEM and horrible crash. I think they may have helped. Just wondering if they work better if saved for emergencies? I have sometimes felt that this is the case with other supplements particularly D ribose.

Hi @TreePerson - I take the BCAAs daily. Right before I first started taking them (I think a little over 3 years ago) my crashes generally lasted 2-3 days. After taking the BCAAs for several days, I crashed again but could not believe it when I could feel it lifting the same night. It lasted one day. So I've taken them ever since, and my crashes have been like that ever since, generally lasting one day. I do monitor my activity carefully - if I severely over do it (which is rare), the crash will last longer, But it used to be that doing one thing too many - e.g., going to the library after grocery shopping would land me in bed for 2 to 3 days. Now it's one. So I take them all the time. I don't want to go back to how I was.

I take d-ribose faithfully every day as well. I think it's something that helps me all the time, I don't think the effect wears off. I did try cutting back on my d-ribose dose because it's sort of pricey but after awhile I realized my energy had decreased so I went back up to the full dose (though lately I keep forgetting to take a second dose during the day! I have to work on this )

 

[TreePerson]

Thank you very much @Mary
I will experiment I think. I am functioning at quite a low level - no shopping or libraries sadly - I’m not sure if that makes a difference. But I find that it’s increasingly important not to crash badly because I no longer recover to the same level. So I’m very keen to have things to work well in emergencies.

 

[nsdn]

Hi. If amino acids are in range, is it advisable to supplement them? Thank you!

 

[nsdn]

@Mary @Jessie 107

 

[nsdn]

 

[Mary]

Hi. If amino acids are in range, is it advisable to supplement them? Thank you!

Hi @José Segundo - sorry, I can't answer that as to whether or not you should take amino acids. But I can tell you my experience. I described why I first started taking BCAAs in the beginning of this thread. My leucine was quite low (at least it had been a few years before, I didn't get new testing done). And my results after several days or a week were very good - cutting my PEM (crash) recovery time in half. And I've been taking them ever since.

I haven't been retested. But I'm assuming my BCAA levels are higher and likely in the normal range now. I did cut my dose of BCAAs a bit last year, and after awhile I noticed that my PEM recovery time was creeping back up, so I went back to my original dose.

I don't think it would hurt you to try BCAAs (but can't say for sure of course!) - they have helped several people on this board. As with anything new, it's good to start with a low dose to see how you react.

People with ME/CFS often need higher doses of various nutrients than healthy people (e.g., I need more folate, B12, and potassium, to name a few)

 

[Shoshana]

Good questions.

I notice that your numbers @José Segundo
Some of them are at the low end of normal range. Near the low end. So it might help you to supplement, and like Mary, I do not know of any danger, but of course, I do not know either.

I also think that each individual person might have an optimal #, which might vary, when the normal range is very large, as some of them are. SO perhaps even though a number is in normal range, it mght not be the best number for you.

Just my personal ideas/thoughts, on why it might help a person to try the BCAA's , or a complete product that includes both the BCAA's, along with additional amino acids, or the rest of the amino acids.

I am not an expert, but I would judge them more by what effect they have.

 

[Mary]

Just my personal ideas/thoughts, on why it might help a person to try the BCAA's , or a complete product that includes both the BCAA's, along with additional amino acids, or the rest of the amino acids.

I am not an expert, but I would judge them more by what effect they have.

I would judge them by the effect too. I think people with ME/CFS very well may need higher doses of several aminos than are found in food. It's been documented that because of our defective energy production that we use aminos for fuel, unlike or more than "normal" people.

However, I would not try to get BCAAs from a complete amino acid product. I don't think it has the same effect - e.g., protein powder never affected my PEM like the BCAAS have. And I did take a complete amino acid product some years ago and again it had no noticeable effect. Athletes take BCAAs for results which I don't think are obtained from products with the full complement of amino acids.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

OK. Thanks for the feedback.
You might be correct also, about it being better to take it in water, with nothing else, and completely away from all protein, it was just interesting that was not what I had read .

@Mary is right. Amino acids taken with other amino acids would compete with each other for absorption, and because orthomolecular science is so complex, I'm not sure whether that's on a first come, first served basis or on some arcane molecular weight of each amino acid. Either way, it would definitely dilute, and possibly eliminate, the benefits hoped for from the BCAAs.

So for optimum absorption, on an empty stomach mixed with any liquid that doesn't contain protein, about a minimum of 30 minutes (more is better, just to be sure) before ingesting anything else is the way to go. Keep in mind, too, that a lot of juices contain varying amounts of protein, so fruit juice would probably be the best bet, but read the Nutrition Facts label on the juice bottle, just to be sure. I was really surprized to discover that my veggie juice had 2+ g of protein per 6 oz serving.

@Shoshana .... absolutely right .... low and slow is the way to go when you're starting something new.

@lllamamom .... thought this might help.

 

[lllamamom]

In early November I came across some articles which indicated that branched chain amino acids could help reduce or even prevent PEM. "

I've also just started taking DMG (not TMG) and think it may be helping as well, though it's too soon to tell, will post more about the DMG after I've been on it for awhile. I'm taking 3 125 mg. DMG caps a day (Now Foods)

Hi, Mary,
How are you doing on the DMG? We swear by the stuff...our acupuncturist suggested it to help with oxygenation several years ago, when we were moving from sea level to 7K feet. It’s wonderful! Now, when the adult kids come to visit they start taking it about 2 weeks ahead, as they’re still at sea level. Our daughter and son-in-law, the manic OCR racers, steered us to Vega Recovery Protein, which has BCAAs in it. They use it after their races, I use it for my mid afternoon snack, and it has really helped keep the PEM at bay. Not gone, but not crawling on the floor crying, either.

Another good brand of DMG is Country Life.
Hugs,
Kris​

 

[Mary]

Hi @lllamamom -I forgot about DMG! I stopped taking it probably not too long after I posted about it in January 2015. I don't think I noticed much difference, although it probably was hard to tell, between the BCAAs and the glutamine and the DMG!

How much DMG do you take? Proper dosing can make such a huge difference. I might give it a go again! Before I got ME/CFS, I didn't get altitude sickness, but after my health went south, I got a very bad headache and nausea the last time I was at 7000 - 8000 feet. I later learned that B12 might help with this but haven't been back to see.

I'm really glad to hear the BCAAs are helping you keep PEM at bay! I won't be without them. They don't stop PEM for me, but my recovery time is still half of what it was for many years.

 

[Hufsamor]

Thanks a lot for this thread.
I learned about BCAA form one of Martin's posts and have ordered some from iherb.
While I'm waiting I've been searching on the forum for more information, the when, the how, etc.
It's all here.
And with 4 years from first posting and still a valuable supplement, I'm even more sure its a good idea to give it a try.
Thanks to everyone who contributed

 

[Hufsamor]

I take 4 capsules at least half an hour before breakfast and 4 more before lunch, a total of 8 a day altogether for a total of 4,000 mg. a day.

May I ask a question?
I've pasted photo of the bcaa I've ordered, if I want to try the same amount as you are taking, would it be two scoops, twice a day?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@lllamamom

You've totally disproved Ogden Nash's "The one L'd lama is priest / The two LL'd llama is a beast / And I would bet a silk pajama / There isn't any three LLL'd lllama." Collecting might be a problem, tho, he died sometime in the 70's.

I'm trying to work up the courage to try BCAAs, my system is so reactive right now that some days I approach water with caution. If I do try them, I'll post here.

I find @Mary input to be solid and well-considered, and I really enjoy her posts, so it's just a matter of time.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@lllamamom

You've totally disproven Ogden Nash. He owes you a silk pajama, but it'll have be a challenge collecting it .

"The one L'ed lama is a priest
The two LL'd llama is a beast
And I would bet you a silk pajama
There isn't any three LLL'd lllama."

And I would bet this isn't the first time you've heard this. Apologies. Couldn't stop myself. Tried.

I'm working up the courage to try BCAAs, but as I've said, my system is so reactive to everything right now that some days water is a challenge . But I really like @Mary posts and their considerable knowledge and real-world, experiential input, so I'll work up to it as quickly as I can.

When I try it, I'll post here with results.

 

[Mary]

I've pasted photo of the bcaa I've ordered, if I want to try the same amount as you are taking, would it be two scoops, twice a day?

Hi @Hufsamor - I'm actually a bit confused by the label on your product. It says that 1 scoop equals 3 grams, but I don't know where they get that figure. Adding up the milligrams shown on the label for one scoop, I get 1960 mg., or almost 2 grams. In any event, assuming it's 1960 milligrams per scoop, it would be 3920 mg. for 2 scoops, almost 4 grams, and I was taking 4 grams a day but have recently upped it to 5 grams a day.

So if you took 2 scoops a day, 2 x a day (for a total of 4 scoops a day), that would be 4 x 1960 mg., or 2 x 3920 mg., which would be a total of 7840 mg. a day. If I were you, I might try 3 scoops a day, for a total of 5880 mg.

But like I tell everyone, I'd start low and go slow to make sure you have no problem with the BCAAs.

I am still puzzled by the label - I actually called Optimum Nutrition to ask them about this, but got a recording and I didn't want to leave a message. So you might e-mail or call them to find out for sure just how much BCAAs are in one scoop.

 

[Mary]

I'm working up the courage to try BCAAs, but as I've said, my system is so reactive to everything right now that some days water is a challenge .

I'm not nearly as reactive as you, though a lot of things used to make me detox, but don't any more. But I don't think it's the same thing as you are dealing with.

There are many people on this board who do react to almost everything and are very limited in what they an eat, etc. You may be dealing with something like MCAS - I'm not sure but I think that's the condition which is related to so many food and supplement intolerances. You may know about this already but it's something I know nothing about. I'm going to tag @Gingergrrl here because she knows a lot about it, and has dealt with MCAS (among many other things! )

 

[Hufsamor]

@Mary thanks a lot.
I'll do that before I start.