B6 Puzzle

[flong]

Here is my B6 serum test, and my B6 Pyridoxic level from the Organic Acids test.
Does anyone know what would cause such a low level of Pyridoxic acid from the cell when there's apparently plenty of B6 in my blood?

*did I post this in the right place?

 

[sb4]

I had a very similar result, low B6 as per OAT and Osteopath. I also test normal for blood B6, including a test that measures the enzymatic activity, which is supposed to be more accurate. So I'm not sure what to believe but I'm currently leaning towards have a B6 deficiency.

I suspect it could be caused by anaplerosis compensating for lack of input into the TCA via pyruvate.

Basically, some people with CFS have been shown to have pyruvate dehydrogenase problems, and I also suspect pyruvate carboylase. This means you handle carbs poorly and they cannot be used in the TCA to fuel mitochondria. You need some substrates in the TCA for energy production. If you cannot use glucose then you have to use fat AND protein together to enter the TCA. Using protein in the TCA instead of glucose would use up a lot of B6 as this is a cofactor in anaplerosis enzymes.

 

[LINE]

sb4 brings up some interesting points. There are many nutrients involved in the Krebs cycle, so it is quite possible that something else may be deficient. Activation of the immune system produces quite a bit of stress on the body and many things suffer as a result.

Another idea is that the cell membrane is damaged due to oxidative stress. The oxidative stress comes from activation of the immune system which produces strong oxidants meant to destroy pathogens. Unfortunately, the oxidants damage the cell membrane which leaves it "leaky", meaning it becomes dysregulated.

Antioxidants protect the cell membrane which brings vitality back. Lipid replacement therapy is meant to restore the cell membrane which is made up of certain types of fats, phosphatidylcholine is one of those. Sunflower lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine and other fatty acids could help in that.

 

[flong]

I had a very similar result, low B6 as per OAT and Osteopath. I also test normal for blood B6, including a test that measures the enzymatic activity, which is supposed to be more accurate. So I'm not sure what to believe but I'm currently leaning towards have a B6 deficiency.

I suspect it could be caused by anaplerosis compensating for lack of input into the TCA via pyruvate.

Basically, some people with CFS have been shown to have pyruvate dehydrogenase problems, and I also suspect pyruvate carboylase. This means you handle carbs poorly and they cannot be used in the TCA to fuel mitochondria. You need some substrates in the TCA for energy production. If you cannot use glucose then you have to use fat AND protein together to enter the TCA. Using protein in the TCA instead of glucose would use up a lot of B6 as this is a cofactor in anaplerosis enzymes.

It's taken me this long to sit down with the info and go over it.
I think I get it now. It actually makes sense, and it seems like it's a possibility in my case.
It's interesting to see this stuff and how it works, but I'm still trying to figure out why it's happening. There's a definite gut issue(s), cellular malabsorption of several nutrients like Vitamin C and folate as well. Again, folate is too high in the blood, but the OAT indicates a deficiency.
Searching for the root cause of the illness, I suppose like everyone else here!

 

[flong]

sb4 brings up some interesting points. There are many nutrients involved in the Krebs cycle, so it is quite possible that something else may be deficient. Activation of the immune system produces quite a bit of stress on the body and many things suffer as a result.

Another idea is that the cell membrane is damaged due to oxidative stress. The oxidative stress comes from activation of the immune system which produces strong oxidants meant to destroy pathogens. Unfortunately, the oxidants damage the cell membrane which leaves it "leaky", meaning it becomes dysregulated.

Antioxidants protect the cell membrane which brings vitality back. Lipid replacement therapy is meant to restore the cell membrane which is made up of certain types of fats, phosphatidylcholine is one of those. Sunflower lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine and other fatty acids could help in that.

This is facinating. It's funny you mention the cell membrane too. Could the malabsorption at the cellular level be nutrient specific like this? I have a double mutation in the PEMT gene associated with cell membrane issues as well. Looking up the Lipid Replacement therapy you mentioned...
Attached is a copy of my Organic Acids Test. I understand some of it, but especially the Amino Acids portion I haven't got a clue about. Also the oxidative stress indicators are on the test but I'm not sure what they mean exactly.

 

[LINE]

I do not have an answer for the question, but I would think this could make an impact. I do know that the membrane is a gateway that allows substances in and out,. For instance there is the sodium channel which allows sodium to move through the cell. https://www.britannica.com/science/cell-biology/Membrane-channels

The test indicates low to very low vitamin C - in the membrane model, it is said that the membrane becomes damaged via oxidative stress - they recommend the fatty acids along with adequate antioxidants. Personally, vitamin C is a powerhouse for me.

 

[flong]

I do not have an answer for the question, but I would think this could make an impact. I do know that the membrane is a gateway that allows substances in and out,. For instance there is the sodium channel which allows sodium to move through the cell. https://www.britannica.com/science/cell-biology/Membrane-channels

The test indicates low to very low vitamin C - in the membrane model, it is said that the membrane becomes damaged via oxidative stress - they recommend the fatty acids along with adequate antioxidants. Personally, vitamin C is a powerhouse for me.

Thanks for the link. I'm sure things got damaged from poor diet, stress, alcohol use, general toxins, anything really. For some reason though it's progressive. It's very possible the membrane hasn't been able to recover because it hasn't been getting the right nutrients? Sounds like a vicious circle.

I just came across some amazing info about vitamin C. I know for sure my cells aren't getting and/or processing vitamin C, not sure why. According to this article, "vitamin C regulates a key stress-induced transcription factor called Hypoxia Inducible Factor 1α (HIF1α), a protein that, when activated, regulates the expression of hundreds of stress-related genes. Notably, the activation of HIF1α occurs in the absence of adequate oxygen or vitamin C supply"

I'm wondering if at this point supplementing vitamin C would do any good. I'm already getting plenty in my diet. I'm thinking maybe trying to repair damaged cell walls would be a good place to start? Unfortunately this thing has progressed to the point that almost every system is working sub-par currently.

 

[pamojja]

I'm wondering if at this point supplementing vitamin C would do any good. I'm already getting plenty in my diet.

Some good education on vitamin C:

It's never too late.

 

[LINE]

It depends on whose model you trust. Most say that 60mg per day is sufficient while others indicate much higher levels. For myself, I do a minimum of 5,000 mg per day with an objective of 10,000 per day. Drs. Klenner, Cathcart and Linus Pauling all pushed higher doses (normally to bowel tolerance levels, in other words you take until the stools are loose).


http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v02n02.shtml

https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/PDF/pauling.pdf

*information is for educational purposes only.

 

[Learner1]

@flong My vitamin C and glutathione levels were similar to yours, indicating huge oxidative stress. This test doesn't test other antioxidants which are likely low, too.

Oxidative stress can damage mitochondrial membranes and create a vicious cycle where they get more damaged making things even more inefficient and need for other nutrients to go up. Also, B6 is used in sphingolipid production for membranes.

You might also want to do an HDRI nitrotyrosine test to tell if you are making peroxynitrites, which cause even more damage.

The attached articles describe these problems.

I've been gradually improving under the care of a knowledgeable doctor. Recently, I started phosphatidyl choline IVs every 2 weeks and have had marked improvement. Getting plenty of glutathione into me regularly has been criticsl in reducing PEM.

The other things I've been doung that are a foundation for these improvements:

1. Having adequate B vitamins to support methylation and glutathione production
2. Having adequate glycine, cysteine (NAC), and glutamine to support glutathione production
3. Taking high doses of ALA, vitamins A and E, and vitamin C (9g a day split in 3 doses)
4. Having adequate trace minerals like selenium, magnesium, calcium, zinc, potassium, molybdenum
5. Taking NT Factor for lipid replenishment

 

[LINE]

The other things I've been doung that are a foundation for these improvements:

1. Having adequate B vitamins to support methylation and glutathione production
2. Having adequate glycine, cysteine (NAC), and glutamine to support glutathione production
3. Taking high doses of ALA, vitamins A and E, and vitamin C (9g a day split in 3 doses)
4. Having adequate trace minerals like selenium, magnesium, calcium, zinc, potassium, molybdenum
5. Taking NT Factor for lipid replenishment

Great information and thanks for sharing - this is very close to what I have been doing and improved. As Learner1 exposed, is that glutathione levels are generally low. Glutathione plays an important dual role, the first in immunity where it supports immune function (low glutathione = low immunity) and the second role is in support detoxification (low glutathione = lowered detoxification = weakened cells).

Glutathione gets used up pretty heavily when either an infectious event occurs or when toxicity comes. The second example would be someone who is being exposed, say at a factory where toxins are plentiful. Since the body is dealing with the toxins, then glutathione is used up which leaves the immune system vulnerable, so they come down with some bug and the vicious cycle continues.

For myself, I found that liposomal glutathione was a much better choice than standard glutathione. Learner1 uses the precursors to it, and some have used whey.

 

[flong]

Thanks so much for all this.
I'm just wondering where a good place to start would be. Getting L-Ascorbic Acid is easy. One question I have is when I take it, does the Vitamin C start attacking my damaged cells like it would cancer cells?
Would taking b6 be a good start?
What about rebuilding cell walls and mitochondrial membranes? I'm really interested in the best protocol for that.
There are so many areas of damage that it's hard to know where the best place to start is.
@Learner1 You mentioned a knowledgeable doctor. I would love to know if it's possible to see a doctor who knows all about this stuff, even over Skype. I know there are thousands of doctors out there practicing in these non-mainstream areas, but I need one who really knows what they're doing. I've seen two naturopaths and they've both been amazing at seeing levels and alleviating symptoms, but I need a second opinion regarding treatment, because it really hasn't got any better. Neither of them have mentioned anything about the above treatments. Just wondering what the best next step would be.
Thank you kindly.

 

[pamojja]

Getting L-Ascorbic Acid is easy. One question I have is when I take it, does the Vitamin C start attacking my damaged cells like it would cancer cells?

For attacking cancer cells one would have to take up to bowel-tolerance Ascorbic acid (=the upper limit of all daily doses combined where the bowel can't tolerate the total anymore and flushes with a liquid bowelmovement). Which in my case is at 50 g/d. But everyone is different, for an other the flush might occur at 10 g/d, again an other at only 1 g/d. But generally speaking the more sick the more depleted and therefore the more one can tolerate.

That's why everyone recommends to start low and go slow. Simply because even no doc could be in the known how much you can tolerate or need. With vitamin C alone one can't go much wrong (since even the flush is harmless). The same with all other nutrients recommended: start very low (even by first taking only parts of a capsule) and slowly but gradually increase. And better wait after each nutrient introduced to check for it's specific effects. Most nutrients added in this way can't even be felt. Simply because it will take it time to correct deficiencies.

Hell, just now after 10 years of taking B6 going slow and increasing gradually I reached 200 mg/d, and it's the first time I can remember vivid dreams consistently (and my blood B6 has been in the 150 range already for many years!)

So yes, a knowledgeable doc would be nice. But are practically very rare and one gets there on one's own too, eventually.

 

[LINE]

I think you are asking if vitamin c would damage the normal cells. It would be my feeling that it will protect the cell. Make sure you get vitamin c that comes from a trusted source and by that I mean, I took certain brands that caused problems, likely because they put toxic fillers in it or came from a questionable source. I now take Quali C which comes from a trusted source. Others recommend buffered C which is also known as ascorbates which are not as acidic as ascorbic acid.

Vitamin E protects the membrane as well since it protects against lipid peroxidiation. I never use the synthetic form (dl-alpha) only the natural form (d-alpha). Sunflower lecithin (not soy lecithin) contains the phospholipids that comprise the cell membrane and I would use some other healthy fats. Udo's choice is a comprehensive oil blend but it is not cheap.

A good article on cell membranes https://www.thenaturalvet.net/Fats-and-Their-Relationship-to-Cell-Membrane-Function_b_6.html

 

[pamojja]

I took certain brands that caused problems, likely because they put toxic fillers in it or came from a questionable source.

For high dose any 100% pure l-ascorbic acid powder will do (and at 1.95 per 100g bottle very cheap where I live). Would avoid any capsules or pills due the high amount of binders and fillers at high dose. If it's too acidic, one can at a bit sodium bicarbonate (or potassium bicarbonate). Or up to half of the weight in bicarbonates to completely neutralize it (to Sodium or Potassium Ascorbate).

 

[LINE]

For high dose any 100% pure l-ascorbic acid powder will do (and at 1.95 per 100g bottle very cheap where I live). Would avoid any capsules or pills due the high amount of binders and fillers at high dose. If it's too acidic, one can at a bit sodium bicarbonate (or potassium bicarbonate). Or up to half of the weight in bicarbonates to completely neutralize it (to Sodium or Potassium Ascorbate).

Good point.

 

[flong]

For high dose any 100% pure l-ascorbic acid powder will do (and at 1.95 per 100g bottle very cheap where I live). Would avoid any capsules or pills due the high amount of binders and fillers at high dose. If it's too acidic, one can at a bit sodium bicarbonate (or potassium bicarbonate). Or up to half of the weight in bicarbonates to completely neutralize it (to Sodium or Potassium Ascorbate).

Two things.
First, as per your recommendation and others, I'm starting with a tiny amount of L-Ascorbic Acid powder. I noticed the first two days I took it that "good" kind of tired like after a long, hard workout, and an amazing sleep. Both nights I dreamed about taking more and couldn't stop thinking about taking more when I woke up. I kinda got scared and haven't taken any for three days since. I haven't had this particular kind of reaction to something before. Is this how people feel when they get their first taste of methamphetamine?? (Okay seriously though, my system is craving it). It seems like my system really needs it and likes it...but like everything else, I'm sure there is a flip side to it somehow. Just wondering if I should be careful taking it for some reason?
The second thing is, I'm looking into supplementing either phosphatidyl choline or Sunflower Lectin. Does anyone have any comments on which might be better, especially seeing as I'm +/+ in the PEMT gene?

 

[pamojja]

It seems like my system really needs it and likes it...but like everything else, I'm sure there is a flip side to it somehow. Just wondering if I should be careful taking it for some reason?

For me it's flatulence above 30 g and diarrhea above 50 g ascorbic acid powder a day. But as already said, these limits are too individual and you should exercise care for this reason.

Benefits in my case of taking about 24 g/d of ascorbic acid for now 10 years, as written already somewhere else before:

Vitamin C - after a PAD diagnosis almost 9 years ago, together with lysine and all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling - pain-free walking distance improved from mere 3-400 meters up to 2 hours. But only once I exceeded the in his view minimal therapeutic dose of 6 g/d each. Side-benefits: a since 2 years persistent skin-rush cleared up, hay-fever symptoms recurring every spring since 15 years got alleviated. HbA1c stayed disproportionally low, compared to higher blood glucose. A cystitis circumscripta of the bladder disappeared. Truly addictive stuff for someone with my health-issues.

Also no deficiencies induced by such high intake over such long time in my case. Nada.