B12 deficiency

[Martial]

Do you take potassium supplementation? Don't over think your symptoms too much, however the powder supplement form in 3000g total in a day could help, just don't take more then 900mg at a time, also consume high potassium foods.

 

[alonaxis]

No, I don't take, and yea I'm really overthinking about the symptoms, I will try to let go a little bit.
thanks for the advice.

 

[xks201]

If you lookup the molecular weight on b12 it is way too high to absorb sublingually. Whatever benefit you are getting from a sublingual b12 is from whatever gets swallowed.

 

[Hip]

If you lookup the molecular weight on b12 it is way too high to absorb sublingually. Whatever benefit you are getting from a sublingual b12 is from whatever gets swallowed.

That is not true. Absorption of high doses of vitamin B12 across the mucus membranes is much better than oral absorption.

Around 2% to 5% of vitamin B12 is absorbed in the nasal mucosa. And using a test dose of 1.5 mg of hydroxocobalamin, a study found that 20 times more hydroxocobalamin was absorbed intranasally compared to when administered orally.†

So the mucous membranes in your nose are 20 times more effective at absorbing hydroxocobalamin than your stomach.

B12 has also been shown to absorb through skin.†

 

[xks201]

That is not true. Absorption of high doses of vitamin B12 across the mucus membranes is much better than oral absorption.

Around 2% to 5% of vitamin B12 is absorbed in the nasal mucosa. And using a test dose of 1.5 mg of hydroxocobalamin, a study found that 20 times more hydroxocobalamin was absorbed intranasally compared to when administered orally.†

So the mucous membranes in your nose are 20 times more effective at absorbing hydroxocobalamin than your stomach.

B12 has also been shown to absorb through skin.†

You are not correct. Not all membranes are equal in their absorption. Nasal membranes absorb up to around 2,000 daltons. Sublingual membranes absorb up to around 300 daltons. The molecular weight of b12 is 1350 daltons. See the presentation of this MD talking about peptides absorbing across nasal vs sublingual membranes. Here it is also straight out of the mouth of a pharmacist/chemist http://dongoldberg.com/2010/10/11/vitamin-b12-sublingual-form/

Here is the powerpoint presentation from the MD (see slide 51 of powerpoint)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjADOAo&url=http://www.eatrightbroward.org/support/Marchsym/BCDA%20-%20The%20hCG%20Hoax%20-%20Kenneth%20Woliner,%20MD.pptx&ei=PLShU7izGNK3yATy5IEQ&usg=AFQjCNHTbPN6s7fuHN2oY1TY20PdlQ2iRw

Whatever benefit people are getting out of sublingual b12 is from what they end up swallowing.

 

[sueami]

@alonaxis Don't be afraid to supplement with potassium and see if the muscle tension subsides. I was freaked out about it at first too. My doc directed me to a canadian pharmacy where I could buy 1500mg potassium tablets.

After reading on the boards here, I got nervous about using those (the 99mg limit on US supps, I read here, is to prevent a large dose of potassium from getting stuck somewhere in the digestive tract and damaging the mucosa) so I stopped those and was just drinking an eighth of a tsp of no-salt (about 450-500mg potassium) dissolved in water when I was feeling my symptoms, which were anxiety and heart palps.

When I returned to my Doc and told him about my worries, he gently smiled and said his 90-y-o dad takes one of these a day, and his digestive tract has to be slow as heck. My doc said he woke up in the night with anxiety and palpitations and downed four of the 1500 tabs, so I needn't be afraid of them.

I'm taking one in the mornings now and additional no-salt in water if I notice muscle twitching at night.

eta: By giving your body more b-12 you are stimulating cellular processes that have been damped down. That's upping your body's needs for minerals like potassium. Get a good multi-mineral complex too. Search for reccs on the site here.

 

[xks201]

@alonaxis Don't be afraid to supplement with potassium and see if the muscle tension subsides. I was freaked out about it at first too. My doc directed me to a canadian pharmacy where I could buy 1500mg potassium tablets.

After reading on the boards here, I got nervous about using those (the 99mg limit on US supps, I read here, is to prevent a large dose of potassium from getting stuck somewhere in the digestive tract and damaging the mucosa) so I stopped those and was just drinking an eighth of a tsp of no-salt (about 450-500mg potassium) dissolved in water when I was feeling my symptoms, which were anxiety and heart palps.

When I returned to my Doc and told him about my worries, he gently smiled and said his 90-y-o dad takes one of these a day, and his digestive tract has to be slow as heck. My doc said he woke up in the night with anxiety and palpitations and downed four of the 1500 tabs, so I needn't be afraid of them.

I'm taking one in the mornings now and additional no-salt in water if I notice muscle twitching at night.

eta: By giving your body more b-12 you are stimulating cellular processes that have been damped down. That's upping your body's needs for minerals like potassium. Get a good multi-mineral complex too. Search for reccs on the site here.

Assuming you have a b12 deficiency it'll speed up metabolism... good advice on potassium though.

 

[Hip]

You are not correct. Not all membranes are equal in their absorption. Nasal membranes absorb up to around 2,000 daltons. Sublingual membranes absorb up to around 300 daltons. The molecular weight of b12 is 1350 daltons. See the presentation of this MD talking about peptides absorbing across nasal vs sublingual membranes. Here it is also straight out of the mouth of a pharmacist/chemist http://dongoldberg.com/2010/10/11/vitamin-b12-sublingual-form/

Here is the powerpoint presentation from the MD (see slide 51 of powerpoint)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjADOAo&url=http://www.eatrightbroward.org/support/Marchsym/BCDA%20-%20The%20hCG%20Hoax%20-%20Kenneth%20Woliner,%20MD.pptx&ei=PLShU7izGNK3yATy5IEQ&usg=AFQjCNHTbPN6s7fuHN2oY1TY20PdlQ2iRw

Whatever benefit people are getting out of sublingual b12 is from what they end up swallowing.

Well if what you are saying is correct, then the many people on this forum who have been using @Freddd's famous B12 protocol, which involves slowly dissolving and absorbing 5,000 mcg of B12 methylcobalamin either sublingually or on the upper gums area of the mouth over a period of 45 minutes, have got it all wrong.

If absorption only takes place in the stomach, hardly any of this 5,000 mg B12 sublingual dose would be absorbed, because the stomach can only take in a maximum of around 10 mcg of B12 at any particular time (ref: here). This is due to the small amount of intrinsic factor present in the stomach, which is necessary for B12 absorption from the stomach.

However, many do seem to benefit from Freddd's protocol, which suggests that B12 is buccally absorbed in higher amounts than just 10 mcg. Could it be that the mucous membranes of the inside cheeks of the mouth, and of the gum area in the mouth, are more absorbent than the sublingual mucous membranes, so that when a B12 tablet is slowly sucked for 45 minutes and the B12 is well distributed over all the oral mucous membranes, a good amount does get absorbed?

Another thing about this dalton molecular weight absorption limit: from this perspective, you would not be able to absorb B12 from the skin either, because this paper says that the skin can only absorb molecules up to 500 daltons in weight, and by what you are saying, that would rule out transdermal absorption of vitamin B12, which weighs 1350 daltons. But in fact transdermal vitamin B12 patches are available for sale, and presumably work, so it would seem that the molecular weight absorption limit may not be as clearcut as you suggest.

In support of what you are saying, though, I did find this study which found that the B12 absorption from a 500 mcg tablet was around the same when taken sublingually, or when directly swallowed.

 

[Mij]

Check this out. Table 2 shows the comparisons

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1884303/

 

[xks201]

I read a study showing that different additions of products to the b12 could allow absorption through the nasal membranes of higher molecular weight things. Insulin is an example which has a relatively huge MW. Clearly there is no consensus on this matter on the web. I would assume that the body can only absorb so much b12 or b12 derivative and store it in one session so that even sublingual would saturate the body with whatever left of that was swallowed. buccal does have a different dalton limit - I do not know what exactly it is but I can't imagine it is that much off from sublingual.

 

[Valentijn]

However, many do seem to benefit from Freddd's protocol, which suggests that B12 is buccally absorbed in higher amounts than just 10 mcg. Could it be that the mucous membranes of the inside cheeks of the mouth, and of the gum area in the mouth, are more absorbent than the sublingual mucous membranes, so that when a B12 tablet is slowly sucked for 45 minutes and the B12 is well distributed over all the oral mucous membranes, a good amount does get absorbed?

The sublingual area has the biggest absorption capacity in the mouth, from what I can recall. Maybe it's the slowed oral ingestion of a high dose which is helping?

 

[Hip]

Maybe it's the slowed oral ingestion of a high dose which is helping?

Could be I guess.