Arthritic type pain in hands

[sregan]

My hands are really hurting suddenly esp. in the middle knuckle area. I recently started SMP again but don't know if this has any thing to do. Anyone experience this?

 

[AndyPandy]

My hands are really hurting suddenly esp. in the middle knuckle area. I recently started SMP again but don't know if this has any thing to do. Anyone experience this?

I have random arthritic type pains in my fingers. Not sure what the cause is. Exploring whether it is a reaction to certain foods.

I didn't have this problem before ME.

Hope you find an answer.

 

[Lotus97]

I started getting pain in my hands 7 years ago after playing a lot of video games, but the pain continued for several years after I stopped. I guess partially because I had to move 3 times and maybe I spent too much time at the computer.

I haven't really found the cause or how to treat the pain other than limiting activities. The past few years I've been relatively pain free until about 6 months ago. Now the pain is back with no end it sight. I just try to stay off the computer as much as possible. I've tried supplements for inflammation and collagen rebuilding (which were recommended by Stephen Buhner for Lyme), but they didn't seem to help so I stopped taking most of them.

 

[Nielk]

My hands are really hurting suddenly esp. in the middle knuckle area. I recently started SMP again but don't know if this has any thing to do. Anyone experience this?

Does it feel the same in both hands? Does it feel hot to the touch? Are they swollen at all? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, I would look into Rheumatoid Arthritis.

 

[*GG*]

Perhaps you should research undenatured collagen 2 I think it is called, it supposedly helps with arthritis.

GG

 

[maryb]

@sregan
if it started after taking a supplement its probably a reaction to that.
I just started taking pycnogenol and grape seed extract, I also started having sharp arthritic pains in my fingers at bedtime? So I know its one of those causing it.

 

[sregan]

Does it feel the same in both hands? Does it feel hot to the touch? Are they swollen at all? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, I would look into Rheumatoid Arthritis.

worse in one hand than the other. the worse has has a recent injury though from about six months ago.

 

[sregan]

@sregan
if it started after taking a supplement its probably a reaction to that.
I just started taking pycnogenol and grape seed extract, I also started having sharp arthritic pains in my fingers at bedtime? So I know its one of those causing it.

I think it's because of methylation supps. Freddd mentions an increasing of inflammation when taking MFolate. Especially if it's too little mfolate.

 

[Scarecrow]

Does it feel the same in both hands? Does it feel hot to the touch? Are they swollen at all? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, I would look into Rheumatoid Arthritis.

@Neilk. I've had pain in all the joints you would expect to get RA in. It's symmetrical but not always simultaneously symmetrical - the pain on either side can be separated by several days. Also it's usually not intensely painful although sometimes I'm helpless with the pain; fortunately these occasions have always been brief. I was very interested that you stated if the answer was yes to one of three (both sides / hot / swollen) then it could be RA. My GP is thinking osteo because I don't have any heat. I don't mean to put you on the spot as the resident RA expert but I'd be interested in anything you have to say about this.

 

[Nielk]

@Neilk. I've had pain in all the joints you would expect to get RA in. It's symmetrical but not always simultaneously symmetrical - the pain on either side can be separated by several days. Also it's usually not intensely painful although sometimes I'm helpless with the pain; fortunately these occasions have always been brief. I was very interested that you stated if the answer was yes to one of three (both sides / hot / swollen) then it could be RA. My GP is thinking osteo because I don't have any heat. I don't mean to put you on the spot as the resident RA expert but I'd be interested in anything you have to say about this.

I was diagnosed with RA 7 months ago, although I had symptoms for a year and a half.

I would suggest a blood test for RA factor as well as anti-cpp.

 

[daisybell]

I had severe pain in the joints in my hands as part of my symptoms of parvovirus. It took about 18 months to settle down...

 

[Lotus97]

I think it's because of methylation supps. Freddd mentions an increasing of inflammation when taking MFolate. Especially if it's too little mfolate.

Methylation in general can cause inflammation. I don't think it has anything to do with not enough methylfolate.

 

[Uno]

Krill Oil really helps with this pain and inflammation

 

[Lou]

@sregan
if it started after taking a supplement its probably a reaction to that.
I just started taking pycnogenol and grape seed extract, I also started having sharp arthritic pains in my fingers at bedtime? So I know its one of those causing it.

Agree. Have no idea of mechanism but if I take too much Vit C I get arthritic type pain in one or both hands(back of hand approx. midway between wrist and big knuckle).

When this happens a copper bracelet(the only use I have for it) usually relieves symptom within thirty minutes.

 

[Tunguska]

Agree. Have no idea of mechanism but if I take too much Vit C I get arthritic type pain in one or both hands(back of hand approx. midway between wrist and big knuckle).

When this happens a copper bracelet(the only use I have for it) usually relieves symptom within thirty minutes.

There's one article that links pycnogenol to copper chelation, but it's been withdrawn... ? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19875267 Weird. Hope this is legal:

Abstract

Metabolism of some trace elements is altered in children with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and natural polyphenols may be beneficial in therapy of this disease. Aim of our randomized, double-blind and placebo-controlled study was to investigate the impact of polyphenolic extract, Pycnogenol((R)) (PYC) on plasma levels of Cu, Zn, Se, Fe, ferritin and transferrin in ADHD children. Sixty-five ADHD children (aged 6-14 years) were supplemented with 1mg/kg/day PYC or placebo over a period of 4 weeks. Control group consisted of 56 healthy children (aged 6-14 years). We have found lower Zn level (p<0.05), higher Cu/Zn ratio (p<0.05) and higher Cu level in ADHD children compared with control group. Se, Fe, ferritin and transferrin levels were observed to be similar to healthy children. PYC administration significantly decreased Cu levels (p<0.01), Cu/Zn ratio (p<0.05) and Fe levels (p<0.05). No significant effect of PYC on the levels of Zn, Se, ferritin and transferrin was found. PYC modified trace element status, normalized total antioxidant status through a decrease of Cu, Fe levels and Cu/Zn ratio and improved clinical symptoms of ADHD. PYC might be beneficial supplement in the treatment of ADHD.

Read some accounts of Vitamin C affecting joints elsewhere, loosely mentioning copper. Maybe that's a lead...

 

[Tunguska]

Here's a similar story involving vit C, ALA, copper: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2309504

After years of taking alpha lipoic acid, I stopped.....and I feel SO much better!

For those that don't know, alpha lipoic acid is one of the most powerful natural antioxidants available. It's one of the few antioxidants that can cross the blood brain barrier, and it's both fat and water soluble. It also helps to control blood sugar levels, increases cellular energy and aids in the body's glutathione production.

So with all of these health benefits, why did I stop taking it?

OK let me first state that I've been having joint pain in my right knee, the index finger on my right hand and a mild case of Achilles tendonitis in both legs for years due to working out with heavy weights. I knew it had something to do with the supplements I was taking, because reducing intake got rid of the pain.

Rather than stop completely though, I decided to narrow it down. After quite a bit of experimentation, I decided that it was the Vitamin C that was causing these problems. While Vitamin C is an anti-inflammation fighter and collagen builder, I discovered that using it in large quantities can cause metabolic imbalances since it chelates copper and increases the absorption of iron, which can affect other minerals.

So I cut my dosage down from 3 grams a day, to 2 grams, and then to 1 gram. This improved my pain substantially, but never completely got rid of it. Eventually I cut back to 500mgs a day, and with extra copper (2 mg), I thought I had finally solved my problem.

But something gnawed at me. I know people that take WAY more Vitamin C than I do, and they never had these issues. One guy I know, a body builder, takes 6 grams a day, but he never complained about joint pain.

So something else was definitely afoot.

I started to examine my other supplements, in particular zinc. Zinc I know for a fact has an inversely proportional relationship with copper. When levels of one goes up in the body, the other goes down as they both compete for absorption using the same channels.

I went from taking 60 mg of zinc a day, to 45 mg and then finally to 30 mg. All the time, I noticed improvements. Still, cutting back on zinc never returned me to being 100% pain free.

I knew my pain had to do with low levels of copper though. Something I was taking was causing my copper stores to be depleted. So what else was there?

I started reading up on supplements that chelate copper and other trace minerals, and to my surprise, alpha lipoic acid popped up. In fact, there are people that take large doses of alpha lipoic acid to chelate heavy metals like mercury, or to get rid of excessive copper in the body.

Also, not only does alpha lipoic acid chelate copper, it also INCREASES the amount of Vitamin C in the body by recycling it.

I had been taking alpha lipoic acid for a long time, specifically the natural R-form, but I've also used the S-form as well. At any rate, I stopped taking the alpha lipoic acid, and voila! After years of waking up in the morning with pain and stiffness in my Achilles tendons, my right knee and my right index finger, the pain was completely and utterly gone!

It took a few days for the pain to go completely, as it takes a while for it to clear completely out of the system.

But I feel so much better and stronger now! My energy levels have increased, and I recover faster after working out.

I increased my Vitamin C dosage to 1 gram a day, something which would have caused my pain to flare up in the past, but there's no pain now whatsoever!

I hope that someone will benefit from my posting this, even if you don't take alpha lipoic acid.

Too often we forget that taking extra natural supplements like vitamins, minerals and antioxidants can have long standing effects on the body in a myriad of different ways.

(Maybe Vit. C is better off pulsed - on/off...)

 

[BadBadBear]

Tunguska, thanks for posting that. I am having some mystery foot pain in the arch of my left foot - on top of the foot in the bones - that seems arthritis like. I am inclined to quit taking ALA and see if it goes away.

Could be from increased ALA
Increased methyl supps
Resistant starch

All of those things have been tweaked in my diet lately, since the pain started.

My integrative MD assured me that increased ALA would not disturb my mineral status, but I am not 100% sure about that. I am taking low dose ALA 3x a day for my blood sugar.

 

[sianrecovery]

This symptom has been a real problem for me over the past six months. The pain came one day and never left. I link it to toxicity, working on my laptop. The rheumatologist told me it is oesteoarthritis, but odd it should have such a swift onset. A friend with RA suggested managing the pain by alternately putting my hands into icy water and water as hot as I can stand for fifteen minutes a day. I'll let you know how I get on.