Anybody ever found anything to help unrefreshing sleep?

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Like the title says, has anybody ever found anything that makes the mornings a little easier?
I recall getting a mailer once, from a chinese acupuncturist....a fancy glossy promo thing. it got into a bunch of detail about all the cycles of organ cleansing which go on during the sleep cycle- and this person offering services to address it with herbs and acupuncture.

I know the notion of A Pill and A Cure is- well a lovely thought, Make it Happen.

Until that happens- the chinese herbalists really do have the best treatments for this stuff- experts. Not dabblers. Experts. Not easy to find. One is in my town, he writes books.
 

seamyb

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I wish we understood how ME screws up sleep, even if we have no way to treat it.
The only theory I've heard sort of makes sense - that the brain isn't getting rid of toxins during sleep like it should.

Makes me wonder about such things as Perrin's technique or lymph massage which I never really took seriously.
 

Alvin2

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The only theory I've heard sort of makes sense - that the brain isn't getting rid of toxins during sleep like it should.

Makes me wonder about such things as Perrin's technique or lymph massage which I never really took seriously.
You can try it but i personally doubt it.
Also i considered if it might by glymphatic system related, my personal opinion is no.

I would suspect its milling about in our Wired But Tired chemisty- the urea problem. And then probably some brain stem misfirings.
I am unfamiliar with the urea problem.
 
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Perrin's technique or lymph massage
I just did three weeks of chinese herbal lymph cleanse- 4 "gentle" herbs". I went into a detox and zombie state. My swollen lymph nodes went down. CSF drains into the lymph- so thats connected.

so then figure stored in these fluids are the molecules that make us sick or send out messages- LPS, lactate,

I still can't really survive a physical massage, or using the vibrator on muscles, or a full acupuncture treatment- without serious PEM after.
 

nerd

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It's become better in my case, by quite a bit. But I've changed so many things in the recent two months that I can't tell for sure what it is. What I do think helps, though, is Melatonin. Depending on your baseline, normal melatonin or the sustained one might be better.

Do you also feel the most air hunger in the morning, as soon as you try to stand up?
 

seamyb

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It's become better in my case, by quite a bit. But I've changed so many things in the recent two months that I can't tell for sure what it is. What I do think helps, though, is Melatonin. Depending on your baseline, normal melatonin or the sustained one might be better.

Do you also feel the most air hunger in the morning, as soon as you try to stand up?
Oh I take melatonin. Can't trust falling asleep without it. Doesn't seem to do much for the quality though.

My air hunger is never present in the morning. Takes a few hours of being awake before it hits. I seem to have it under control at the minute - only happens now if I take b12. Sufficient folate and potassium seem to keep it away.

I'd be interested to hear your answer to my post on the methylation forum regarding what supps people are taking and where they plan on going. No pressure though. I keep hitting walls with methylation after initial success. Typical really.
 

Wishful

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I think that one problem with the 'unrefreshing sleep' symptom is that it actually has nothing to do with sleep. It's just a fatigue-like symptom that isn't reduced by sleep. In other words, if you managed to get a full night of top-quality sleep ... you'd still wake up feeling 'unrefreshed'.

Instead of looking for treatments targeted at improving sleep, you might be better off trying to find something that reduces the 'fatigue-like' feeling.

Proline makes me wake up feeling less refreshed, but I haven't found anything that does the opposite.
 

Howard

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I didn't have refreshing sleep for seven years, until I tried tart cherry powder, and then immediately noticed positive results. Now, as long as I get six hours sleep, I'm mostly pain-free, and my muscles don't ache very much.

I take the tart cherry powder (or tart cherry juice, if you'd rather), within two hours of wanting to go to sleep.

Please search Google, there's plenty of supporting research... :)

H
 

Treeman

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Covid 19. I caught Covid 19 and after my sleep improved. I've gone decades of poor disturbed sleep the suddenly I can sleep at least 7.5 hours every night of deep undisturbed sleep. I still wake with ME/CFS and fatigue, so maybe my new better sleep could be still described as unrefreshing, but it's had a huge positive effect on my health and life.
 

heapsreal

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I think that one problem with the 'unrefreshing sleep' symptom is that it actually has nothing to do with sleep. It's just a fatigue-like symptom that isn't reduced by sleep. In other words, if you managed to get a full night of top-quality sleep ... you'd still wake up feeling 'unrefreshed'.

Instead of looking for treatments targeted at improving sleep, you might be better off trying to find something that reduces the 'fatigue-like' feeling.

Proline makes me wake up feeling less refreshed, but I haven't found anything that does the opposite.
I sort of agree. I can have a reasonable nights sleep and feel crappy or a crappy nights sleep and feel shithouse the next day. It isnt a cure but finding the right med combo can help me sleep ok most nights and basically i dont feel as bad as i could be.

I think if we took one thing like sleep and could fix it, i dont think cfsme would be cured. I could say yeah you will feel better but more accurate would be you dont feel as crappy when you get a good sleep.

Full on insomnia is torture, sleep aids are a band aid but they do relieve the suffering. Find a few drugs and herbs that help sleep and alternate them to help avoid tolerance. Try not to take the same sleep aid every night cause eventually it just wont do squat.
 

Alvin2

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It's become better in my case, by quite a bit. But I've changed so many things in the recent two months that I can't tell for sure what it is. What I do think helps, though, is Melatonin. Depending on your baseline, normal melatonin or the sustained one might be better.

Do you also feel the most air hunger in the morning, as soon as you try to stand up?
I take it to normalize my sleep pattern a bit and it helps sleep initiation a bit but beyond that does not improve sleep quality in the slightest.
 

nerd

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I take it to normalize my sleep pattern a bit and it helps sleep initiation a bit but beyond that does not improve sleep quality in the slightest.
I also have issues falling to sleep and that my sleep isn't deep enough. This is where melatonin helps. It hasn't helped me with how I feel in the morning.
 

Judee

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L-Ornithine has some ratings on amzon from a lot of people saying it helped their sleep.

I use a supplement that has it in it and I do get a little bit of refreshed sleep from it but it only lasts about 20 minutes into my day.

Also the product has been discontinued so I am not posting it here however, I suspect the L-Ornnithine and OKG (L-Ornithine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) in it is what is making the difference.

They are both known to lower ammonia in the body and I suspect a lot of us deal with excess ammonia issues.