Andrographis Paniculata - and it's many effects

[godlovesatrier]

Hi all,

So a few people asked me to write about Andrographis as I talk about it a lot and I know Mary has posted a few things about it, so thought I would tag on. I know a few people take andrographis, both on the forum and off it, but I only know of @Mary and myself who takes it daily or semi regularly.

Warning: Andrographis is a very strong bitter botanical plant, it grows in India. Indian doctors put up medical warnings in India about the plant because locals take it in large doses to kill dengue fever. However it also dehydrates the body, therefore the andrographis and any acute illness with diarrhea and vomiting do not mix. That's not to say you can't take it, but you have to drink about 2-3 litres of water a day.

Warning: Andrographis causes mild allergic reaction in some people (swelling of the lips, face, throat, high tempreature etc)

Warning: In 5% of people it causes a severe allergic reaction. Purple welts will appear on the patient and the rash is pretty unbearable. Source.

Name: Andrographis Paniculata, "King of Bitters", Kalmegh

Natural habitat: Tropical, from Tamil region india

Andrographis traditional uses: Slows viral replication for two strains of dengue fever, has been used to help drug addicts recover from addiction, potent upper respiratory tract infection treatment (if tolerated - see side effects.)

Constinuent part: Andrographolide

Recommended form: Extract capsule, where the powder from the capsule tastes extremely bitter on the tongue.

Modern uses: Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lyme disease (Borrelia Burg)

Anti parasitic: Kills and immobolises parasites and eggs.
Anti bacterial: Due to its taste and indeed its very strong effects, it can immbolise and then kill bacterial strains, the main ones like Staphylococcus aureus, are heavily effected, those hiding in biofilms like Borrelia Burg are supposed to be well effected, I do not believe it has much activity against entereoviral infection.
Anti viral: Dengue fever strains nad other respitory infections

Side effects: Severe allergic reaction in 5% of people, mild allergic reaction in a subset of people, herx (normal herx reaction if pathogens present), drop in blood pressure, effects on insulin resistance and blood sugar, dehydration, can cause breathlessness, increased metabolism, increased stomach acid (which can cause headaches), with sustained use immune stimulation.

Auto immune diseases: Unlike some, andrographis is recommended and safe for auto immune disease patients. Source.

Specific Studies

Flu recovery and h1n1 viral replication slowdown

This study showed that siberian ginseng combined with andrographis eased symptom severity and number when people had the flu.

Microglial and Neuroprotective effects

This study showed that Andrgrapholide (the main constituent part in Andrographis) eases neurological injury and damage by lowering potential for oxidative damage and microglial inflamation.

Myalgic Encephalitis implications

Central nervous system, CNS/ANS over stimulation and adrenal fatigue

According to this study Andrographis has benzodiazepine like qualitites. Which is probably why it's also been used in drug withdrawal programs as well.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The present invention is directed to methods of treating substance addiction or an impulse control disorder or reducing the likelihood of relapse use of an addictive substance or practice of a behavior associated with an impulse control disorder by

administering to a subject in need thereof a composition including an effective amount of Andrographis paniculata or an active substance or extract of Andrographis paniculata, in which the composition is effective to treat the substance addiction or impulse control disorder or reduce the likelihood of relapse use of the addictive substance or practice of the behavior associated with the impulse control disorder.

With regards to adrenal fatigue, if you can stop the CNS over firing due to adrenaline surges you can ultimately calm that down to prevent adrenal fatigue. However Hip's post on anti anxiety supplements would be more beneficial as andrographis has more side effects.

Anecdotally I can say if my own CNS is firing and my nervous system is in a lot of pain, Andrographis takes the pain down to almost nothing. The same applies if I am wracked by pain from fatigue.

Anti viral

I do think it's anti viral effects in general can be good for the immune system, it may be a safe alternative to Valtrex and Valcyte for example. But it's no cure, it just brings your body to a certain level and can boost your immune response without over stimulating your body, which is a great combo.

Anti bacterial/Anti parisitic

As we are meant to have either bacterial troubles or parisistic issues this particular mode of action is pretty great. I haven't had a stomach bug or anything like it in 4 years, I put that down to andrographis as I have taken it in large doses over these periods of time.

Blood brain barrier

This study showed that andrographis crosses the blood brain barrier. Personally I believe this is why it can be useful at not only lowering brain inflamation but also in potentially eradiciting any viruses or in the case of lyme - bacteria - that are lurking there.

Safety and Dosages

The british government performed a safety review of Andrographis Paniculata here. Which states the following on dosage:

3.2.3 Dose strength(s) and regimen Traditional preparations include dried plant material, infusions, decoctions and tinctures with extract ratios of between 1:1 and 1:6. [8] Typically used daily doses in traditional medicine systems are 1.5-6g of the dried aerial parts of the herb; 1.5-9g of the dried herb as an infusion or 3-6 mL of a 1:2 liquid extract [9-10]. Modern preparations often present the dried herb in capsule or tablet form, or contain a standardised extract containing 11.2mg of andrographolides per 200mg of extract, with a typical dose being 400mg thrice daily. [9] Where a maximum daily dose (MDD) is included in ARTG entries of products that containA.paniculata, it ranges from 200-18000mg (equivalent quantity of A.paniculata).

Anecdotal:

I've seen people shift sinutis infections that won't go away (myself included) with andrographis.

I would also bet that a 2 to 4 week course of andrographis would annihilate any latent covid infection. So many are struggling with infections way after the virus has gone. It's been shown in several studies that ginseng and andrographis work well together. Whilst ginseng would protect lung cells and allow the body to repair them, andro would kill any bacteria and prevent a recurrence of infection. Ultimately these two return the body to full health over a 4 week period.

Pleases feel free to point out any mistakes. Hope someone finds the info useful. I do think it's a great pain killer for CNS pain, you can use it for it's anti viral anti bacterial etc purposes, but requires 6 months dosing with potentially a lot of detox/herx reactions for a few months.
As a little advise, if anyone does try andrographis, apart from the warnings above, please take it low and slow, if you start detoxing you need to let your body catch up.

 

[Wolfcub]

Thank you for this @godlovesatrier You have answered many questions I had about Andrographis (which up to now I haven't tried)
I did try researching it....but you have put SO much info. into one small space ! Thanks so much

 

[godlovesatrier]

Your welcome. I forgot to add whilst I've had a few conversations with @Hip about andrographolide and he's made many suggestions. The rest of the post is all my own research and anecdotal experience using it over the last 3 years. When I first started it I would herx quite badly. Over time that's disappeared. But sometimes it's hard to figure out what this did and how helpful it was over time.

For me the blood brain barrier effect is one of note.

 

[ebethc]

I've had good luck w this herb; it's one of the few supplements that I always have on hand.

I have joint pain/stiffness that flairs up in cold, damp weather and digestive problems (which are helped by almost anything bitter)...It also helps overall pain (including the pressure in sinuses)...

also, it's cheap and well tolerated. highly recommend if it's a match for your symptoms..

 

[godlovesatrier]

I've had good luck w this herb; it's one of the few supplements that I always have on hand.

I have joint pain/stiffness that flairs up in cold, damp weather and digestive problems (which are helped by almost anything bitter)...It also helps overall pain (including the pressure in sinuses)...

also, it's cheap and well tolerated. highly recommend if it's a match for your symptoms..

It is wonderful for the joints. I've found exactly the same thing.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Updated with some other ailments that andro works for.

Specifically chronic sinutis that won't go away.

And I'm convinced it would work on post covid 19 patients with lung damage when combined wirh Siberian ginseng.

 

[ebethc]

is there any quality research that says andrographis calms microglia?

I was sick w covid in march/april and don't feel like I have it anymore BUT I've had the most intense joint / muscle pain (mostly joint, though) for all of May. It's like it REALLY pissed off my CFS, so May has been about calming down my (much worse than usual) CFS symptoms... This week I dug out my andrographis bottle and took some on thursday/friday... Last night I slept, like, 10 hours, really deep sleep, too. I've been in too much pain to sleep, even though I've been tired... vicious circle. I'm wondering if the andrographis calmed my body down (hence, my microglia question)

Today, my body feels more relaxed, but I'm extremely foggy... I was able to navigate trader joe's and walk both ways.

EDIT: btw, I'm not suggesting that someone take andrographis to get over covid... I was really conservative about anything that I took during covid b/c I read some really counterintuitive reports, like advil is bad to take during covid, per some french study... During covid, I only took Vitamin D, and tylenol... I'm trying andrographis now to calm the CFS flare caused by covid

 

[godlovesatrier]

@ebethc

I know that andro is a strong anti inflammatory. Both neurologically and otherwise. It will help kill any infection flare up after covid and massively reduce any latent inflamation. But really astragalus is probably the only thing that's going to raise your exhausted t cell count and give you energy. Once you've got energy your body should start to heal naturally too.

I can't find the studies now but I'm sure it does calm microglia flaring and it's also a th2 potentiator. To be honest if it made you sleep that well I would say that you may still have some latent infection because if I take andro, currently an hour later , I get an immune/energy boost which lasts a few hours. So if your still sleepy/tired/fatigued after a dose that could be a viral die off reaction.

Plenty of studies have shown andro and ginseng are a great combination whilst you are infected. However I know from years of experience it will work after to get you back together too.

Suffice to say I would take andro for 4 weeks and astragalus for 4 weeks to get an immune benefit post covid if I ever got it.

 

[Mary]

is there any quality research that says andrographis calms microglia?

See this from @godlovesatrier 's initial post in this thread:

Microglial and Neuroprotective effects

This study showed that Andrgrapholide (the main constituent part in Andrographis) eases neurological injury and damage by lowering potential for oxidative damage and microglial inflamation.

I have found andrographis to be the most effective herb I've taken for my immune system. I think it was responsible for my NK cells to increase over a period of couple of years. I used to take it almost daily for quite awhile, but have stopped doing that. The Cellfood has helped my immune system a lot, but I just got over a rough week (digestive problem this time! which is unusual for me, usually it's my sinuses). Anyways, I'm back on andrographis as well as the Cellfood.

@ebethc - I was very glad to see you post here! I've wondered how you were doing

 

[godlovesatrier]

Good points by Mary especially about NK cells. One additional thing worth saying is that herbal potentiators are common in herbalism. I absolutely notice this when I'm half herbals. I prefer to trial something alone before I combine.

Licorice root is a very common and well known potentiator. Which will lift and enhance the herbs it is taken with.

Even so I notice this with ginseng as well. It seems to enhance the andrographis somewhat.

 

[Mary]

@godlovesatrier - I would like to be able to take ginseng, but it causes insomnia for me! Though if/when I get COVID-19, I might try it if I need extra help --

 

[godlovesatrier]

@Mary same here. I can only take it if I'm struggling if that makes sense. Only then do the two things balance out. If theres nothing going on in my life and I take it then yes I'm bouncing off the walls.

 

[ebethc]

I have found andrographis to be the most effective herb I've taken for my immune system.

I've taken it for inflammation (especially in joints) but I don't think I've "trialed" it long enough to see changes in immune function. I also have EXTREMELY low NK cells (TWO! I call them tweedle dee and tweedle dum)

I think it was responsible for my NK cells to increase over a period of couple of years.

• what were your NK cells at the beginning, and how high did you get them?
• over what time period? ie, the did it take two whole years, or is that just how long it took to get tested for NK cells?
• what dose did you take?
• I get EVERY cold/flu that goes around; did you have the same problem, and if so, did increasing NK cells help make you robust & resistant to colds/flus?

A lot of CFSers seem to have auto-antibodies, but I haven't been tested for any that came back positive (there still might be some that WOULD). My immune system is UNDER active, but it sure doesn't like being stimulated too much, either... I need to find a way to increase resistance, and if Andrographis -> increased NK cells -> increased immunity, then I'll try that route... Diet/Fixing Gut dysbiosis is super important, too, of course..

The Cellfood has helped my immune system a lot

how does cellfood help you specifically?

@ebethc - I was very glad to see you post here! I've wondered how you were doing [/QUOTE]

I'm extremely discouraged and at the end of the road in so many ways. The past few years have been the worst, and I've been at this for decades.

 

[Mary]

what were your NK cells at the beginning, and how high did you get them?

In 2013 they were 13 (range of 8 - 170)
In 2015 it had gone up to 15 (range of 7 - 125)
In 2018 it had gone up to 24 (range of 7 - 125) - this is the last time they were tested. I had been taking the andrographis for about a year at that time. I haven't had an NK cell test since. I don't have a good doctor( though that may be changing).

In this thread done in 2/2018, I state that 1 andrographis a day was helping me, taking it prophylactically, though when sick I had to take more. Some time ago (can't remember when) I stopped taking it daily, though I always go back to it if I need it. And when sick will take 2 tablets, 3 x a day, often combining it with echinacea. Andrographis is the best immune herb I've ever taken.

Also, when I was taking it prophylactically, I would take a break every 5 or 6 weeks for a week or so because I'd read that that was what you should do with immune modulators. I did this on my own, did not (and do not) have a doctor advising what/how to do this. But it worked. Because it's an immune modulator, it's supposed to tamp down an over-active immune system, and ramp up an under-active one.

I get EVERY cold/flu that goes around; did you have the same problem, and if so, did increasing NK cells help make you robust & resistant to colds/flus?

I would never catch colds and flu that others had. The last flu I had was in 2000. However, I would get sick with a sinus infection every time I crashed, and I crash at least once a week - overdo my limits, so prior to andrographis I was sick maybe 80% - 90% of the time and it would take 7 - 14 days to recover, so literally sick most of the time. It was almost worse than the crashing. After I started th andrographis, I would still get sick every time I crashed, only it was much milder and I would recover much more quickly. It was definitely noticeable.

I started taking andrographis when my sister (who does not have ME/CFS) had a severe sinus infection some 3 years ago. She was on 2 courses of ABX, but it came roaring back each time. Finally her NP suggested she try a Standard Process product, the chief ingredient of which was andrographis. She called me about 3 days after she started taking it and I couldn't believe how much better she sounded. It was unreal, it worked that quickly. That's when I started taking it.

how does cellfood help you specifically?

I started taking Cellfood about 2 months ago. See this thread. I had been fighting a low-grade sinus infection for about 2 weeks (can't remember if I was taking andrographis) when I started the Cellfood and 3 days later my sinuses were clear. Over the ensuing weeks I would start to get sick again, and each time it would stop within about 2 days, with the Cellfood. Also, my energy started to pick up. I just felt better. And my lips got redder (seriously!) sort of like when I started methylfolate, and I got more color in my lips. A week ago last Friday I had amazing energy most of the day. Unfortunately, I crashed the next day, so it hasn't solved the ultimate ME/CFS puzzle but it's helping, it's making me feel better overall.

This past week was not good - I had some sort of intestinal issue, cramps and fatigue. Cellfood can cause detoxing and I don't know if it was a detox reaction or a bug of some kind. I'm finally getting some energy back today, and my gut is better. So I recommend you start low and go slow. I'm currently taking about 10 drops 3 x a day, but I started with about 4 or 5 drops a day for a couple of days until I knew how I was going to react. I highly recommend this stuff.

Also, have you ever tried BCAAs? They've helped a lot of us. They cut my PEM recovery time in half, though they haven't stopped PEM.

Anyways, I would rank andrographis and Cellfood at the top of my list for immune support, especially right now. (as well as vitamin D of course)

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hi @godlovesatrier , and thank you for that incredibly detailed intro to andrographis .... very helpful.

My only concern is its effect on P450, and more specifically the GABA system. I've had a long battle getting my GABA/Glute balance back into whack and am really leery of doing anything that can plunge me back into that hell again .... still, it's good to know, especially in this time of crisis and lack of vialbe options and info ....

Thanks again, Trier, terrific post !!!

 

[Mary]

@YippeeKi YOW !! - You might remember I used to be extremely sensitive to anything that had even a whiff of MSG or glutamate. It was guaranteed to cause severe insomnia for me (e.g., something that had citrate in it, or things you would never think of but were on this list were huge no-nos for me - I reacted to everything on that list, including the far right column)

I'm now able to have soy sauce at dinner, and sleep as well as I ever do - still have my usual trouble middle of the night - but not the killer revved up msg/glutamate wired to the gills insomnia. Andrographis hasn't hurt my sleep at all.

I think my improvement has come from (1) I stopped taking pantothenic acid (which I needed at one time) when I read that it depletes taurine; and (2) started taking taurine, which helps with glutamate neurotoxicity.

So just wanted to throw this out there, fwiw ---

 

[ebethc]

In 2013 they were 13 (range of 8 - 170)
In 2015 it had gone up to 15 (range of 7 - 125)
In 2018 it had gone up to 24 (range of 7 - 125) - this is the last time they were tested. I had been taking the andrographis for about a year at that time. I haven't had an NK cell test since. I don't have a good doctor( though that may be changing).

that's a good "bump" !

In this thread done in 2/2018, I state that 1 andrographis a day was helping me, taking it prophylactically, though when sick I had to take more. Some time ago (can't remember when) I stopped taking it daily, though I always go back to it if I need it. And when sick will take 2 tablets, 3 x a day, often combining it with echinacea. Andrographis is the best immune herb I've ever taken.

what dosage? I take this one, and it's 400mg per pill
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00166N0EA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would never catch colds and flu that others had. The last flu I had was in 2000. However, I would get sick with a sinus infection every time I crashed, and I crash at least once a week - overdo my limits, so prior to andrographis I was sick maybe 80% - 90% of the time and it would take 7 - 14 days to recover, so literally sick most of the time. It was almost worse than the crashing. After I started th andrographis, I would still get sick every time I crashed, only it was much milder and I would recover much more quickly. It was definitely noticeable.

yep, I'm sick non-stop... it's hard for me to even function, too... not like the sniffles.. I've tried to push through, but then I just get sicker until I stop and go to bed..

I used to have sinus infections, but then I had two sinus procedures so now I don't get them anymore... I still have sinus problems, though... I have NO tolerance for particulate matter... my problems over the past couple of years have been mainly due to the NorCal fires that dumped a lot particulate matter all over town and caused a domino effect w my health... one thing after another.. I was just starting to feel better in the Fall both years (2018 and 2017) and the pollution knocked me off my feet..

If my sinuses are bad, my cognition is bad, too... I wish I understand how particulate matter triggers problems (ie, microglia becomes inflamed, and that's what I should be targeting? astaxanthin, fish oil and healthy fats help, but I need way more)

you might want to try Xlear, sinus spray breaks down biofilm and helps inflammation... go on amazon and read some of the reviews...

I started taking Cellfood about 2 months ago. See this thread. I had been fighting a low-grade sinus infection for about 2 weeks (can't remember if I was taking andrographis) when I started the Cellfood and 3 days later my sinuses were clear. Over the ensuing weeks I would start to get sick again, and each time it would stop within about 2 days, with the Cellfood. Also, my energy started to pick up. I just felt better. And my lips got redder (seriously!) sort of like when I started methylfolate, and I got more color in my lips. A week ago last Friday I had amazing energy most of the day. Unfortunately, I crashed the next day, so it hasn't solved the ultimate ME/CFS puzzle but it's helping, it's making me feel better overall.

interesting... I'll have to check into it when I'm more awake... I'm leary of products w vague ingredients, and I'll have to make sure that it doesn't have iodine in it... thanks for the tip, though.. sounds like a strong endorsement.. I was just thinking that maybe I need some minerals, so I bought some pellegrino

Also, have you ever tried BCAAs? They've helped a lot of us. They cut my PEM recovery time in half, though they haven't stopped PEM.

what brand/dosage do you use?

also, what brand/dosage of ribose do you use?

Anyways, I would rank andrographis and Cellfood at the top of my list for immune support, especially right now. (as well as vitamin D of course)

glad you found a good combo for immunity!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

You might remember I used to be extremely sensitive to anything that had even a whiff of MSG or glutamate.

It isnt't an MSG/glutamate factor that concerns me re: andrographis, it's the fact that if it acts much like a benzo, it's activating your GABA receptors, which can run the risk of down-regulating them, and for me at least, that way lies misery ....

I'm now able to have soy sauce at dinner

That's really terrific !!! Like you, I was sensitive to everything on all the MSG Truth etc lists, and my diet was whittled down to about 5 foods. Oh, and water.

I've done cautious trialing, and, also like you, been able to slowly add quite a few of the items on the No-No lists back into my diet, including careful amounts of soy sauce (I use Kikkoman's, which is the only one that I've found in a reasonable price range that's produced thru traditional fermentation and seems less reactive than any others). I think we both deserve a short round of applause for the courage to give those things a go again.

So just wanted to throw this out there, fwiw ---

also, what brand/dosage of ribose do you use?

I've been meaning to ask you that, too, now that I'm edging into a more experimental phase .... and I can't remember the brand of BCAAs you use ....

Thank you, @Mary for the input. It's helpful and supportive to read of triumphs and successes !!!

 

[Mary]

what dosage? I take this one, and it's 400mg per pill
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00166N0EA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's the same product I take.

you might want to try Xlear, sinus spray breaks down biofilm and helps inflammation... go on amazon and read some of the reviews...

Thanks - I'll check it out! I think part of my problem is my cat too . . . I think I have a mild allergy but would never get rid of her.

what brand/dosage do you use?

I use both Optimum Nutrition and Bulk Supplements BCAAs. I take about 5000 mg a day, in two divided doses (2500 each dose) - I take 1/2 tablespoon of the bulk BCAAs in water (it doesn't dissolve very well, but oh well) first thing, together with 10 drops of the Cellfood, and then 5 capsules of the Optimum Nutrition BCAAs and more Cellfood late morning, on an empty stomach. I first noticed the BCAAs effect on PEM after a week at the most - I was stunned when this happened. I had no idea anything could lessen the duration and severity of PEM - this was i think close to 5 years ago, and I've taken it ever since. @ljimbo423 takes around 10,000 mg a day with good results, but that dose caused insomnia for me.

also, what brand/dosage of ribose do you use?

for d-ribose I use Bulk Supplements again.

glad you found a good combo for immunity!

 

[Mary]

It isnt't an MSG/glutamate factor that concerns me re: andrographis, it's the fact that if it acts much like a benzo, it's activating your GABA receptors, which can run the risk of down-regulating them, and for me at least, that way lies misery ....

Got it - I wasn't aware of this possibility. I don't think it's ever hurt me, but I probably should do more reading about it. Though it does help me so much. I don't think I'd stop taking it anyways!

I think we both deserve a short round of applause for the courage to give those things a go again.

I've been meaning to ask you that, too, now that I'm edging into a more experimental phase .... and I can't remember the brand of BCAAs you use ....

See my response to @ebethc above.

I'm really glad to hear you're feeling well enough to begin edging into an experimental phase!