Actual Improvement in PEM with Probiotics - My N=1 Experience

[Rufous McKinney]

The first woman ever accepted into the University of Florida as a Clinical Gastroenterology Fellow, Dr. Sabine Hazan is a pioneer in the medical field.

gosh imagine being able to see somebody so brilliant. To just be able to talk to them for a while....

what would we give eh?

 

[katabasis]

I am not sure saline (salt water) would be right when transferring LIVE microbes but I have not looked this up. It seems wrong to me when trying to create colonies of living organisms. Maybe distilled water would be better?

On the contrary, these microbes are meant to survive in the human body, the osmolarity of which saline is meant to imitate, so I'd think saline would be ideal. That said, distilled water would probably also work fine, as long as the suspension is used promptly. When it comes down to it, once the suspension is in your rectum/bowel, the mucosa will absorb the water and all its solutes pretty damn quickly - that's literally what it's designed to do - leaving behind the suspended microbes.

 

[hmnr asg]

I started taking this probiotic as soon as OP posted the original message. I didn't want to write a post before getting my two months in so I could have a meaningful contribution to the conversation but that may not be happening.

So I actually noticed improvements, maybe 10%. I do consider myself severe in the severity scale. so that 10% is a lot.

However, I have been having terrible bloating and IBS symptoms since last week. To the extend that its waking me up. I am not sure if that's what is causing it but I think it the most likely culprit. I think I will give it a short break and restart again.

Ps I have been feeling awful since stopping four days ago.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Funny you mention the stretching @Rufous McKinney . My body is doing this taking another treatment. I also see it as a pretty good sign. Assume more oxygen is getting to the muscles or something.

Just in case I haven't said it probiotics help me a ton. They not only give me about 15% more energy if not more but they do help with PEM. Even so I don't take them before exercise I just take them in the morning. But specific probiotics like the one made by Oxford university didn't eradicate PEM as I believe it was meant to.

I take solaray24 and Dr mercola and I took these before starting Josh's protocol so there's no major confounding treatment issue there

 

[CSMLSM]

On the contrary, these microbes are meant to survive in the human body, the osmolarity of which saline is meant to imitate, so I'd think saline would be ideal. That said, distilled water would probably also work fine, as long as the suspension is used promptly. When it comes down to it, once the suspension is in your rectum/bowel, the mucosa will absorb the water and all its solutes pretty damn quickly - that's literally what it's designed to do - leaving behind the suspended microbes.

Thanks

 

[Rufous McKinney]

However, I have been having terrible bloating and IBS symptoms since last week. To the extend that its waking me up.

the probiotic shifts my bowels from having wind (sort of bloated and spasms sometimes)..from being rather loose and "lighter" to being denser and heavier. I think I am getting used to the heaviness feeling.

Bowel activity always disrupts my sleep. Presumably, its moving through too fast. However, the probiotic isn't really altering the timing of morning events. But it looks like I have better digested the food. And thats good.

I often sit on toilets at 5 and 6 am and then go back to sleep for three hours.

Other peoples body's dont' do this.

I read the colon exists to create convenience. My colon did not read the manual.

 

[katabasis]

I started taking this probiotic as soon as OP posted the original message. I didn't want to write a post before getting my two months in so I could have a meaningful contribution to the conversation but that may not be happening.

So I actually noticed improvements, maybe 10%. I do consider myself severe in the severity scale. so that 10% is a lot.

However, I have been having terrible bloating and IBS symptoms since last week. To the extend that its waking me up. I am not sure if that's what is causing it but I think it the most likely culprit. I think I will give it a short break and restart again.

Ps I have been feeling awful since stopping four days ago.

I'm glad you saw some benefit from it, though obviously it sucks that you got GI side effects from it. 10% improvement from 'severe' is exactly the benefit I got from it too, which makes me further suspect there is something to this probiotic.

Do you think it's possible that you have SIBO, or some similar motility problem? That seems like it could easily predispose you to having this kind of negative effect from a probiotic. I wonder whether a mild prokinetic, or something like intermittent fasting which increases motility, might help avoid this kind of thing if you restart the probiotic at some point.

 

[katabasis]

the probiotic shifts my bowels from having wind (sort of bloated and spasms sometimes)..from being rather loose and "lighter" to being denser and heavier. I think I am getting used to the heaviness feeling.

Bowel activity always disrupts my sleep. Presumably, its moving through too fast. However, the probiotic isn't really altering the timing of morning events. But it looks like I have better digested the food. And thats good.

I often sit on toilets at 5 and 6 am and then go back to sleep for three hours.

Other peoples body's dont' do this.

I read the colon exists to create convenience. My colon did not read the manual.

I have also suffered from the dreaded middle-of-the-night BM. It doesn't happen as regularly as it used to, fortunately. I've seen numerous GI doctors and they have all agreed this type of thing 'shouldn't happen' with mere IBS, being more typical of IBD or some other problem. Ultimately I think it might be a manifestation of dysautonomia, in my case due to small fiber neuropathy.

While this probiotic has only provided modest benefit to my GI symptoms per se, one of those benefits has been a definite decrease in bloating/flatulence - to the extent that I've been able to eat small portions of certain foods, like broccoli and corn, that I was previously unable to tolerate due to extreme bloating. This also contrasts with other, garden variety lacto/bifido probiotics (or probiotic foods) which have always caused a worsening of these symptoms for me.

This all makes me think that the underlying, 'ultimate cause' of severe bloating isn't dysbiosis as is often assumed. The original paper I cited, along with my personal experience, suggest that this probiotic is exerting its benefit via endocrine/neurological factors, either by improving motility, modulating the biochemical environment in which fermentation might occur, or simply by reducing the perception of bloating. If there is an improvement in gut flora composition, it seems to be secondary to these factors.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Ultimately I think it might be a manifestation of dysautonomia, in my case due to small fiber neuropathy.

This has been the case with me for 30 at least years.

I recall I was with somebody driving, and they oddly informed me that their brother in law had a bowel movement at 5 am. This was declared some type of aberration.

I said nothing. Sounds very normal to me.

Your very insightful, I want to better understand this..

I ate one slice of sour dough bread last night after my "digestive window" had concluded and today I am a 100% mess. The whole list started up.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I'm still experimenting.....

sleep cycle: I seem to be going to bed a bit earlier and getting up alot earlier. Not sleeping ten hours.

odd neurology: I'm having alot of odd itchy little rashes, and electric shock things going on in my nerves- like more the skin? not muscles or joints.

I"d say my mood is a little better. I feel a bit more lively. Still have to be very careful but this is encouraging.

I am Stil also doing Copaiba topically. I need to apply it to these numb, tingly nerve places and see if it will help them.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I need to apply it to these numb, tingly nerve places and see if it will help them.

'it does help that when I apply it directly onto these odd numb areas...
but I seem to have new ones to practice on,,,,,,,,

 

[CSMLSM]

I'm still experimenting.....

sleep cycle: I seem to be going to bed a bit earlier and getting up alot earlier. Not sleeping ten hours.

odd neurology: I'm having alot of odd itchy little rashes, and electric shock things going on in my nerves- like more the skin? not muscles or joints.

I"d say my mood is a little better. I feel a bit more lively. Still have to be very careful but this is encouraging.

I am Stil also doing Copaiba topically. I need to apply it to these numb, tingly nerve places and see if it will help them.

Your probiotic sounds to be working well what is it called again?

 

[lyran]

I took one capsule of this mood probiotic (by Innovix Labs) yesterday at 4pm for the first time. It seems I was more fatigued and brainfogged during the evening than usually but at 10pm the probiotic had some kind of immune boosting effect or adrenaline/dopamine boosting effect which kept me awake during the night. Later in the night I had to take melatonin to help me sleep. Today I have been constipated.

 

[CSMLSM]

I took one capsule of this mood probiotic (by Innovix Labs) yesterday at 4pm for the first time. It seems I was more fatigued and brainfogged during the evening than usually but at 10pm the probiotic had some kind of immune boosting effect or adrenaline/dopamine boosting effect which kept me awake during the night. Later in the night I had to take melatonin to help me sleep. Today I have been constipated.

Certainly sounds like it had an affect on your microbiome for sure. Gut microbes do communicate with the immune system and HPA axis so sounds on point.

May I ask what it contains in the way of strains of bacteria ect? would be interesting for others too.

 

[lyran]

May I ask what it contains in the way of strains of bacteria ect? would be interesting for others too.

It contains the following bacteria:

Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52ND
Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175
15 Billion CFU† per 1 capsule.

 

[CSMLSM]

It contains the following bacteria:

Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52ND
Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175
15 Billion CFU† per 1 capsule.

Thank you for posting this

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Today I have been constipated.

in my case, it slows down my too rapid digestion....I tend toward IBS-d.

So my gut felt very heavy at first, but less so now... I think I am more used to the heavy feeling (denser better formed poo)

Another change I"ve noticed is I tend to have a second late afternoon event, which is new. I think this means I am digesting my food much better....

 

[lyran]

I gave this probiotic another chance. At first I was constipated again but it wasn't that bad after a few days of use, though I still had stomach discomfort.

After an hour of taking it, I get a calm feeling and after 5-6 hours I get some sort of dopamine boost. These effects are exactly the same I get from l-tyrosine. After taking it for 3-4 days I noticed that I had even less energy than usually, probably because it elevates serotonin. I also had insomnia every night when using it, even when I took it in the morning. I had to stop taking it after a week.

Maybe this probiotic is not for everyone. You have to try it for yourself.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Maybe this probiotic is not for everyone.

One of the very very extremely incessantly annoying things about this creepy little ghost-on-the-stairs illness ... it seems like absolutely NOTHING is for everyone

You have to try it for yourself.

Absolutely agree !!! While the fact that it's helped someone else can be a sort of beacon for other hopefuls, it may turn out that it's not the lighthouse. But the only way you'll know is to try it, carefully ("Start low and go slow" is a mantra on these threads), and see how it works for you ....

We're all our own lab rats and petri dishes, sadly .....

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I gave this probiotic another chance.

I am still very impressed with this probiotic. I take one every few days. My gut function is much improved. I do't really notice the Mood part of the thing.