Acetylcholine caused crash

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Hi, I'm new here and was hoping to get your guys opinion on acetylcholine, and specifically a supplement that I recently tried by the name of Parasym plus. This supplement, developed by Diana Driscoll contains various forms of acetylcholine such as alpha gpc, Huperzine a, and acetyl l carnitine.

After reading an interview between her and the low histamine chef, it seemed that this supplement would do wonders as I also suffer from pots and mcas. Initially it made a huge difference for my flushing, but after several days I became extremely sore and tired, so I stopped the supplement. Now, a week later I am the worst I have ever been, suffering from extreme adrenaline rushes, as well crippling muscle soreness, and almost everything is driving me into Pem.

I tried taking the supplement again, this time at a much smaller dose, 1/4 of the lowest recommended dose, and while it calmed me, it caused the muscle soreness to get worse, so I once again got off of it two days ago. Ultimately I guess I posted this to ask if these types of supplements can cause severe reactions in PWME, and if you guys had any advice on how to halt this terrible crash.

My cfs has been pretty mild in these first two years, and I am honestly terrified that I have somehow permanently ruined my body, as I am currently mustering up all of my strength just to sit up to type this. I have just been lying in bed the past few days, and I am afraid my regression will only get worse. If any of you have had a similar situation when trying these three substances that the supplement is made out of please share
 
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I'm not sure how to contact her, but I'm hoping that these negative symptoms just go away on their own. I recently just learned that acetylcholine, which is what the supplement raises, has an inverse relationship with serotonin. Many of the symptoms I have been having such as the extreme sound sensitivity and lack of deep sleep are a result of low serotonin, so I am hoping that my body naturally corrects itself over the next few weeks. I may contact my doctor about taking an antidepressant short term to see if this relieves any of my symptoms
 
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Hello.

I just had to reply. I have been in the excact same situation as you for about a year now. The same thing happened to me. I tried acetyl l-carnitine and after that nothing has been the same. I have not managed to find out what has hapened. I also got the crash. I am thinking that it even was what made my CFS go full blown.

As you, I have had a "mild" case (as diagnosed by doctor) for several years before and I have been able to live with it. After acetyl choline I have become really ill. This happened about 1 year ago (winter 2015), and I have not been able to lift the "block".

Ive tried the simplifyed methylation protocol. And lots of other supplements, diets etc. The only thing I have not tried is L-carnitine fumarate.

I am sorry that I cannot be of any help, but for what its worth, we are expriencing the same. And there has to be a way out of this.

Any input, anyone?
 
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My tendency for flushing feels like it has turned on 100%. It is constant. My skin is dry, I have extreme dandruff. I also experience alot of anxiety, to the point of body trembling at ponts.

Cold extremeties, dry hair, thinnig hair, extremly dry scalp, depression, ALOT less energy than I had before the supplement, etc. It really crashed me and I havent been able to get up. Before this I would get up from the crashed state on a regular basis, but after the supplement this does not happen. It feels like a "constant crash"
 
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Do people ever get out of this ptsd state, or will I be stuck this way for the rest of my life? Also, are their any supplements I can take or changes I can make to stop this?
 

adreno

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Do people ever get out of this ptsd state, or will I be stuck this way for the rest of my life? Also, are their any supplements I can take or changes I can make to stop this?
I don't think anyone knows. The theory is that the spike in ACh is followed by long-term suppression. The same probably goes for cortisol, since the HPA is activated by ACh. There could be immune system changes, etc. Also, ACh overload is neurotoxic.

Perhaps topping up the Ach with mild boosters would help. Or perhaps suppressing ACh even more would allow the system to swing back. But these are just guesses.
 
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Ok, the idea of messing with this system even more terrifies me, so I think I will see if it gets better on its own. Thanks for the advice though
 
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If I were to try this, what ach supplements would be considered mild? It seems that my body is extremely sensitive to them. I wasn't taking a large dose when all of this started
 

adreno

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If I were to try this, what ach supplements would be considered mild? It seems that my body is extremely sensitive to them. I wasn't taking a large dose when all of this started
Well, I would consider phosphatidylcholine and pantethine (active B5) mild.

ALCAR is quite strong, so is Alpha GPC. And AChE inhibitors (Huperzine A, etc) are probably bad news.

And the problem with Parasym is that you increase availability of ACh (via Alpha GPC), while inhibiting the breakdown of it (via Huperzine A) at the same time. So this will cause a huge increase in ACh that can't be cleared from the synapse.
 
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I will order those supps tomorrow. Thank you so much for your help. You are definitely correct about the Parasym. The way that it was marketed in the interview I read made it seem so harmless, but it is incredibly potent and I wish that I would have been more cautious.
On another website I found a thread discussing this problem, and a person who had used too many of these types of supplements said he used cfos inhibitors to help get himself back to normal. I guess that cfos is the gene that changes when acetylcholine overload occurs. I tried to contact the person who said this in order to clarify what this meant, but it seems that they have been gone from that forum for a while
 

adreno

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Interesting. Here's the article describing changes in c-Fos:
Acute stress facilitates long-lasting changes in cholinergic gene expression
Daniela Kaufer1, Alon Friedman1,2, Shlomo Seidman1 & Hermona Soreq1

Abstract
Acute traumatic stress may lead to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)1, which is characterized by delayed neuropsychiatric symptoms including depression, irritability, and impaired cognitive performance2. Curiously, inhibitors of the acetylcholine-hydrolysing enzyme acetylcholinesterase may induce psychopathologies that are reminiscent of PTSD3,4. It is unknown how a single stressful event mediates long-term neuronal plasticity. Moreover, no mechanism has been proposed to explain the convergent neuropsychological outcomes of stress and of acetylcholinesterase inhibition. However, acute stress elicits a transient increase in the amounts released of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine and a phase of enhanced neuronal excitability5. Inhibitors of acetylcholinesterase also promote enhanced electrical brain activity6, presumably by increasing the survival of acetylcholine at the synapse. Here we report that there is similar bidirectional modulation of genes that regulate acetylcholine availability after stress and blockade of acetylcholinesterase. These calcium-dependent changes in gene expression coincide with phases of rapid enhancement and delayed depression of neuronal excitability. Both of these phases are mediated by muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. Our results suggest a model in which robust cholinergic stimulation triggers rapid induction of the gene encoding the transcription factor c-Fos. This protein then mediates selective regulatory effects on the long-lasting activities of genes involved in acetylcholine metabolism.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v393/n6683/full/393373a0.html
 
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Yes, that was the article referred to in the other thread. All of this is way over my head so I guess I was wondering what he meant by cfos inhibitors. Either way thank you so much for your help, it's very nice to be able to talk with someone who understands this condition so well
 
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Yes there is something in the choline part! I have for the last days been trying lechitin and there is something in this. My brain fog has lifted, so has the depression. I still crash, and I crash even faster than before. But for a little while, my symptoms are much better. Perhaps if we take it over time, something will happen.
 

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Yes, that was the article referred to in the other thread. All of this is way over my head so I guess I was wondering what he meant by cfos inhibitors.
c-Fos inhibitors are hard to come by. Was it some research chemical he was taking?
 
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I actually just found the thread again as I was only quoting from memory after seeing it a week ago. He states that fisetin worked well as a cfos inhibitor for him, but that curcumin or quercitin should work as well. I'm not sure where he is getting his information from, but I know that these do have neuro protective properties
 

adreno

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I actually just found the thread again as I was only quoting from memory after seeing it a week ago. He states that fisetin worked well as a cfos inhibitor for him, but that curcumin or quercitin should work as well. I'm not sure where he is getting his information from, but I know that these do have neuro protective properties
Sometimes you just have to go fishing on Google. So you could search for e.g. "curcumin c-fos" and see if anything useful turns up. It seems it does inhibit c-Fos, the question always is how strong the action is.

I see that fisetin is available on iHerb, might be worth a try:

Doctor's Best, Best Fisetin, Featuring Novusetin, 100 mg, 30 Veggie Caps
 
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I'll definitely give it a shot. It seems that these herbs and spices are relatively safe so hopefully I won't have any terrible reactions. Hopefully fisetin combined with a mild choline supplement will help me feel somewhat better. Once again thank you for all of your help, and I'll update you guys In several weeks in which time I will hopefully be feeling a little bit better