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5g rollout and CFS

Chieftain

Chieftain

Messages
35
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
Yes, if you feel better when living at one location compared to another, there are numerous factors that could explain it, including factors that relate to the residence itself:

Mold exposure in the home
Chloramine in the drinking water supply
Carbon monoxide poisoning in the home, from fault heating equipment
Sunlight and temperature effects from a different climate
 
Saraswati

Saraswati

Messages
28
@Chieftain I still don't think 5G is safe but agree about the location effect and the vacation effect. When on vacation we are often less stressed and probably happy and excited to be traveling. When I lived in SE Asia I was so much more relaxed and thus much healthier than here in Canada. Although now I know I couldn't stand the heat and the last visit I noticed the heat more and was hungry all the time even though it was so hot. More recently I went to the UK to visit family and was so happy and grateful to be going that I felt almost normal. Maybe endorphins are part of it.
 
JES

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
Saraswati said:
Cellphones are useful and so is limited wifi but 5G is not needed. We don't need the Internet of Things or driverless cars. I think it's not worth it so will continue to fight it. I am not especially sensitive to wifi that I know of except if I walk past an Apple store I can feel it. https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/05/03/is-5g-worth-the-risks/
Click to expand...

Back in the 70's almost any person on the street would have said "we don't need a computer at home", but Steve Jobs thought differently and argued that everyone should have a home computer one day. With the information available back in the 80's it didn't seem to make any sense to bring computers to people's homes, as they were mainly used for heavy calculations and simulations. But here we are today and thanks to computers the homebound ME/CFS patients at least have a voice over the Internet.

The same thing can be true for 5G, as we don't yet know what future technologies it may spur. Driverless cars already have many concrete use scenarios I can think of for sick people. I have days when I have pretty bad POTS symptoms, which makes me not want to drive longer distances. At such moments having the comfort of a driverless car would make my life much easier.
 
V

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
I knew someone a few years back who got major sick from EMFs. Just depends on what your triggers are. A few are especially senstiive./ When she got a super flare of stuff, she knew somesthing was up and pulled out her emf meter. turns out someone had installed a major public wifi hub hub, i think comcast, at a very close by church. she was able to get it shut off. (with a customers permission, comcast can turn private accounts into public wifi hubs and plenty of people have said yes). Meanwhile, she was a subject in research showing the effects on some people of emf.

i don't think emf is a trigger for me yet (so far caught a break there since i'm hopeless with chemicals and other triggers likelow frequeny noise), but have noticed how badly my plants do in the room with the modem.... (do't jump on me here, i know plants are differtn than people, i know there are other differences in that room from others besides EMF)

I am greatly affected by place though and like the OP have noticed some places I feel far better than others so am thinking of using that to relocate but it's hard to do the 'leg work" scounting when effectively your legs don't work.

anyway, cool post. if you start a healthy commune in florida or mexico, please post it puclically since I might just join you!
 
sb4

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,660
Location
United Kingdom
@debored13 Looks like a good find, although I am not good at understanding how impact full a paper is or evaluating methodology.

I don't think I have EHS although occasionally I have noticed headaches when sitting next to electronics, most likely random or placebo in my case.
 
W

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
I'm not impressed with how well they 'ruled out other factors'. 100V between plates might be enough to jiggle hairs. Also, since they were switching the AC voltage and didn't state that they used zero-crossing (switching when the AC voltage is zero), there may have been higher peak voltages that their instruments didn't register; A standard voltmeter isn't enough.

Since this was carried out in a silent room, the pulsed voltage may have generated sound waves loud enough for the subject to hear. They didn't say that they used a sensitive microphone to verify that there were no acoustic signals associated with the testing.

This experiment should be replicated closely, but rather should be redone with a different setup, and with proper acoustic testing.
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
debored13 said:
http://stopsmartmetersny.org/images/Marino_-_EHS.pdf.pdf this is some of the first double blinded study proof of ehs ive found, what do you think @Hip @Learner1 @sb4
Click to expand...

Looks interesting. Certainly suggest this single subject displayed electrosensitivity under the experimental conditions used. Whether those conditions are representative of real-life electric field and electromagnetic field exposure is another question. It's a pity that they did not test using electromagnetic fields emitted by cell phones and similar radio communication devices.


What I am not to clear about is the frequencies of alternating electric field used. In the abstract, they only mention 60 Hz, but further down in the paper they mention other frequencies which were tested:
Eight independent sequences were employed, each with 30–50 trials. In three sequences, the frequency was 60 Hz; in two, it was 1 kHz; and in three others, the respective frequencies were 10, 100, and 500 kHz.
Click to expand...

But I could not see where they gave the results for different frequencies.


In terms of how the electric field frequencies tested in this study compare to the frequencies of electromagnetic fields of typical radio communication devices, they are a lot lower, especially the 60 Hz electric field frequency.

For example, cordless phones, 3G/4G cell phones, and smart meter electromagnetic field frequencies are around the 1 GHz mark, which is two thousand times higher than the highest frequency used in the study, the 500 kHz.

So I wonder how much this study applies to radio communication devices like mobile phones.

Although fluorescent tubes with a modern electronic ballast emit electromagnetic fields with a lower frequency around 50 kHz, so this is similar to the frequencies tested in this study. Energy saving compact fluorescent bulbs emit at this sort of frequency also.
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,874
By the way, a calcium channel blocker drug like nimodipine may be worth exploring for those with electromagnetic sensitivity (electrosensitivity):

This paper by Prof Martin Pall suggests that calcium channel blocker drugs can mitigate electromagnetic hypersensitivity. He says that:
various L-type calcium channel blockers can block responses to EMF exposure
Click to expand...

The proposed mechanism by which electromagnetic fields may cause physiological effects and symptoms in electrosensitive people is via the activation of voltage-gated calcium channels (VGCC) in the body. See Table 1 of the study.


Nimodipine is also an ME/CFS treatment in its own right (see Mason Brown protocol for ME/CFS).
 
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Davsey27

Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
515
Good find

I noticed playing basketball with my brother in a gynamisum a few weeks ago there was sparks when we bumped hands.Static electricity

It was the first time I recall this happening since when were kids

It seems to me that the body is electromagnetic
 
W

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
Davsey27 said:
I noticed playing basketball with my brother in a gynamisum a few weeks ago there was sparks when we bumped hands.Static electricity
Click to expand...

Yes, but static fields build up on the exteriors of conductive bodies. That means the outer surface of the skin. It shouldn't have any effect on the interior of the body.
 
W

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
Davsey27 said:
Seems that the body has electromagnetic qualities and has voltage that can be objectively measured
Click to expand...

Yes, any conductor will develop a voltage field in and EMF field. That doesn't say anything about it having a noticeable effect on the body. The page you linked to tries to mislead the marketing target:
"Delicate biological cellular processes (like brain function and heart muscle contraction) operate on the scale of microVolts to milliVolts. Body Voltage can exceed several Volts in some cases."

What they're doing is saying that biological processes can be affected by microvolts, while their meter can show several Volts. What they're doing is confusing physical scales. 10V measured from head to toe means microvolts across a typical cell. Neurons work on millivolts across the membrane, so the EMF-induced voltage across the membrane has to be divided by another factor of 100 or more. That's ignoring current levels (miniscule) and how those are divided up through the body. If most of the current flows along the out levels of the skull, the voltage induced across the cell will likewise be reduced.

So, measuring voltage across a person's skin doesn't really tell you much about possible biological effects. It's certainly not what the marketers want you to believe.

Furthermore, your initial comment was about static fields, which don't penetrate the body. Charge your body up to 500 megavolts with respect to ground, and the voltage across your neurons and other cells doesn't change at all.
 
Davsey27

Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
515
Wishful said:
Yes, any conductor will develop a voltage field in and EMF field. That doesn't say anything about it having a noticeable effect on the body. The page you linked to tries to mislead the marketing target:
"Delicate biological cellular processes (like brain function and heart muscle contraction) operate on the scale of microVolts to milliVolts. Body Voltage can exceed several Volts in some cases."

What they're doing is saying that biological processes can be affected by microvolts, while their meter can show several Volts. What they're doing is confusing physical scales. 10V measured from head to toe means microvolts across a typical cell. Neurons work on millivolts across the membrane, so the EMF-induced voltage across the membrane has to be divided by another factor of 100 or more. That's ignoring current levels (miniscule) and how those are divided up through the body. If most of the current flows along the out levels of the skull, the voltage induced across the cell will likewise be reduced.

So, measuring voltage across a person's skin doesn't really tell you much about possible biological effects. It's certainly not what the marketers want you to believe.

Furthermore, your initial comment was about static fields, which don't penetrate the body. Charge your body up to 500 megavolts with respect to ground, and the voltage across your neurons and other cells doesn't change at all.
Click to expand...

I'm curious Wishful what do you mean by out levels of the skull?
 
W

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
Davsey27 said:
I'm curious Wishful what do you mean by out levels of the skull?
Click to expand...

I meant outer portion. Current flows along the lowest resistance path, so much of the induced current might flow along the fluid layer between outer skin and the skull. The higher the frequency, the less deep the current flows. See "skin effect" for more details. This page https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/the-skin-effect-and-the-human-body.31230/ has some people arguing about the skin effect applied to the human body. Examples include tesla coil (kV at kHz - MHz) output burning a thin layer under the skin, but otherwise not harming the person.
 
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