Too Much Progesterone and Pushy People-Because it works for them, it must work for you.

[Misfit Toy]

Effi-funny. It's exactly how I feel. Not a good feeling because I know she is troubled. I know she is messed up. I never want to turn away a hurting human, but I am being hurt in the process.

She can be extremely generous, which makes it all the more difficult.

I guess the thing is, I am too ill to be friends with her because me being this ill effects her too much and she goes into manic mode trying to fix me. She can't handle it because of her own issues and so goes into overdrive. So, I can only be around her when better and since the surgery, I am anything but better.

 

[Effi]

@Misfit Toy it is hard! On the one hand you want to keep your friends because it's so hard to make new friends when sick. What if one day we are left with no friends at all? That is kinda scary. But on the other hand some friends are just... not really friends. It's hard cause sometimes friends/family mean well, but what they say/do somehow rubs us the wrong way. Cause they just don't get it. And being sick makes us extra vulnerable to stuff people say/do I think. A healthy person would just be too busy with other stuff to let these things get to them. It's a thin line we walk... Take a couple of days to let it sink in and then maybe you'll know what to do.

 

[jeff_w]

She doesn't believe in CFS. She doesn't believe Sjogrens is a real disease either.

This is a real problem. If this is the case, then she doesn't truly know you, respect what you say, or empathize with you. Red Flag #1.

We don't talk about normal things. We talk about her relationship, him not having a job after 3 years still, all of her plastic surgery to look young, all of her holistic protocols that she believes work for her, but they really don't.

So she's self-centered and deluded about her own life. Red Flag #2.

We never do anything I want to do

More evidence of self-centeredness. Red Flag #3.

And, we talk about how to fix me. How to send me to this person, that person, read this book, take this supplement, etc.

So she's controlling. Also, "fixing" you is probably more about her own ego than about your well-being. Red Flag #4.

I recently saw her at a store and I literally hid from her so that I wouldn't have to see her because I was so sick of her and her pushy attitude.

Nice.

...an appointment back in 2013 that she paid for me to go to with a spiritual healer that I said NO, I don't want to see this person. I had to go see her because she paid $100 for me to go see her and sent me the voucher via email.

She didn't listen when you said "NO." Red Flag #5. (You also allowed yourself to be controlled that time.)

It's nuts. This spiritual healer told me that I was sick because my dad who is dead....was hanging around me in this world and needed to cross over into heaven and stop sucking off of my energy. She assisted my dad to heaven. That is crazy and my friend believes in it.

So she doesn't believe in your illnesses, but she believes in weird fringe stuff that you don't believe in at all. What's this connection based on?

I was no better and I was livid that she bought this for me to do when I said I didn't want to and I felt like I had to go because it was $100 appointment that she paid for.

You're being controlled and used for her own gratification. Of course you're livid.

If I were in your shoes, I'd mail the book back to her. That way, she's not out any money, and she at least has the opportunity to return it for a refund. I wouldn't send her a book about CFS, because that's very passive-aggressive and indirect. I'd also explain to her, in a letter mailed with the book, everything you've explained in this thread.

But that's me, not necessarily you.

The bottom line is: She's consistently making your life worse, not better.

I understand being starved for companionship. But there comes a point when your own dignity needs to take over. Good luck with this, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Misfit Toy]

@jeff_w-I agree. I am actually writing her a letter right now. Before I checked PR. You are right on all points and yes, I have allowed myself to be manipulated.

This friendship is based on many years of illness and that is what it is...meaning, mine.

When I moved into this apartment, she gave me a gorgeous dining room table made of barn wood that she didn't want. An Oreck vacuum, a Kitchenaid mixer, oriental rugs, so many things. She and her husband went out of their way at the time to help me move in. They also gave me a huge Austin air purifier. At the time, they seemed like amazing people. This was 11 years ago.

I don't have family members who do stuff like that. My entire family did nothing. So, when someone is nice to me, I try to hang onto them. But, it was soon after that this all began, but I was so much better then. She also was the one who introduced me to making jewelry. My business and success for me followed soon after.

I felt indebted. This person changed my life and gave me insight into a job...a job that I was actually making money from and I had never made money before because of this condition. I was able to work at home and it was a controlled, work when you can situation. I was able to afford things I couldn't previously and take trips out of the country due to this job. It was like a miracle for me. She designs jewelry on the side (she works another job.)

So, there is the connection.

But, over the past few years, things have become weird and strained and uncomfortable. It's been a strange thing lately and for years actually because I have become more uncomfortable and we actually weren't seeing each other that much. Like twice a year, so it was tolerable.

Her marriage, which is ever so effed up and her obsession with botox, plastic surgery and Juvaderm fillers made me ill...meaning, I thought it was gross. She is 62 trying to look so young. She looks good, but one time her lips were like like a carp's...lol.... I even told her, "What are you doing? You look weird." I couldn't even help it and she didn't like it, but I didn't care. I find her to be overly vain and fixated on her appearance.

She is so against medicine, but has had a nose job, breast job, chin tuck, you name it...doesn't believe in medicine but will go under the knife without hesitation. EFFED UP.

Then, her husband hit on me, she found out, I told her what had happened and she became glued to me because she felt that I was the only friend who had ever been honest with her, came out with what he was doing and she suddenly saw me as her best friend. Some kind of weird transference. Suddenly she can't help me, fix me...enough. But, up until this point, she never took this much interest in my life....thank God.

And now this creepy thing she has going on needs to stop.

 

[AndyPandy]

@Misfit Toy I think you are wise to write to her and clearly communicate your thoughts and feelings.

She has been generous in the past, but that does not mean she owns you, or that you owe her. I think that gifts should be from the heart, unconditional and not manipulative.

I hope you can find your way through this and redefine the relationship. That may mean ending the relationship. You will know what is best for you, your peace of mind and your health.

Best wishes, Andy

 

[jeff_w]

When I moved into this apartment, she gave me a gorgeous dining room table made of barn wood that she didn't want. An Oreck vacuum, a Kitchenaid mixer, oriental rugs, so many things. She and her husband went out of their way at the time to help me move in. They also gave me a huge Austin air purifier. At the time, they seemed like amazing people. This was 11 years ago.

I can see why this is so hard now. I do wonder what their motivations were, 11 years ago, for being so kind. You've seen her husband's true character by now, and you also know a lot more about her now.

I don't have family members who do stuff like that. My entire family did nothing. So, when someone is nice to me, I try to hang onto them. But, it was soon after that this all began, but I was so much better then.

The fact that your family didn't do anything for you actually made you a more vulnerable target. I'm not saying that these people are evil, but I really do question both of their motives behind their initial generosity (well, the husband's motives are pretty easy to guess!). I'm especially curious about her motives, given that her controlling behavior began very soon after her extreme generosity.

This situation reminds me of a scenario where a selfish and powerful rich man marries a poorer woman. At first, he lavishes her with gifts, and he introduces her to the world. She is amazed and grateful, and her life becomes much better. But, soon after that, he begins controlling her and manipulating her. She understandably feels indebted to him, so she has a hard time sticking up for herself or leaving.

It sounds like this woman did this to you (she was the "powerful rich man," you were the "poorer woman"). By virtue of your illness, you were poorer than she was, and she seized this opportunity for herself.

But, that may be too cynical and harsh. You know her better than I do.

She also was the one who introduced me to making jewelry. My business and success for me followed soon after.

She may have introduced you to something, but you are the one who made that business happen. She set the stage, but your own skill made you successful. You don't owe her anything for this except a "thank you."

I was able to afford things I couldn't previously and take trips out of the country due to this job. It was like a miracle for me.

You get the credit for your own success, while she gets a genuine "thank you."

Her marriage, which is ever so effed up and her obsession with botox, plastic surgery and Juvaderm fillers made me ill...meaning, I thought it was gross. She is 62 trying to look so young.

Then, her husband hit on me, she found out, I told her what had happened and she became glued to me because she felt that I was the only friend who had ever been honest with her, came out with what he was doing and she suddenly saw me as her best friend. Some kind of weird transference. Suddenly she can't help me, fix me...enough. But, up until this point, she never took this much interest in my life....thank God.

She sounds very wounded--how sad. But, there's no way you can fix her, and she's become toxic to you at this point.

By writing her an honest letter, you're giving her a chance to look in the mirror at her own behavior. You're also giving her a chance to make this right. How she chooses to respond is completely her responsibility.

Good luck.

 

[Kati]

@brenda-she doesn't believe in CFS. She doesn't believe Sjogrens is a real disease either. This is not someone who just sends me a book. She sends me 3 since December. One on how disc herniations don't cause pain, and 2 on hormones. This is a pushy person with a husband who cheats on her, lies to her, and who tried to be with me last year.

I have experienced a ton of drama due to her not wanting to leave a horrible relationship. I have accepted her inability to leave him and I rarely ever ask her to because she is too mentally weak.

We don't talk about normal things. We talk about her relationship, him not having a job after 3 years still, all of her plastic surgery to look young, all of her holistic protocols that she believes work for her, but they really don't. We never do anything I want to do because her life is too fixed and controlled.

And, we talk about how to fix me. How to send me to this person, that person, read this book, take this supplement, etc.

I recently saw her at a store and I literally hid from her so that I wouldn't have to see her because I was so sick of her and her pushy attitude. That told me something and that was long before this recent altercation.

I understand your point. But we aren't talking about a book....we are talking about books and an appointment back in 2013 that she paid for me to go to with a spiritual healer that I said NO, I don't want to see this person. I had to go see her because she paid $100 for me to go see her and sent me the voucher via email. It's nuts. This spiritual healer told me that I was sick because my dad who is dead....was hanging around me in this world and needed to cross over into heaven and stop sucking off of my energy. She assisted my dad to heaven.

That is crazy and my friend believes in it. After this spiritual healer assisted my dad into heaven, which is hilarious, I was no better and I was livid that she bought this for me to do when I said I didn't want to and I felt like I had to go because it was $100 appointment that she paid for.

This is totally messed up, said politely... Who needs that kind of friend? Who needs that kind of aggravation? Have you considered 'return to sender' as an option? At the very least it would mark your boundaries.

 

[L'engle]

If people 'don't believe in CFS' they are basically saying that the thing that governs your life and choices is about as real to them as the tooth fairy. That's about how much respect you will get from them. I would make an effort to explain, but not if it spirals into a long session where she tries to convert you away from your 'false illness beliefs'.

 

[Misfit Toy]

@Kati -because it was delivered from Amazon...you can't do that. But, I am going to send it back to her. @jeff_w -thank you for your wise words. My biggest problem with this letter is it's very angry. So, I can't send it as of yet.

I am literally telling her, which I think is proper, "That instead of constantly trying to fix me, perhaps you really need to be fixing yourself, but by your own admission, you are too scarred to do so so you have taken me on as your project instead." I am not sure if I should say that..it's true, real and harsh but she can't handle the truth.

I am so upset by this whole thing. I agree that this is absolutely toxic. It's just so hard to know..to know I will have no real friends to call if anything goes wrong. That is what is freaking me out, but this situation is not helping me. Being alone during my surgery, being in that hospital and dealing with this whole wrist situation has caused major PTSD and they were there somewhat. If I have an emergency, I will have no one to call. That's extremely upsetting.

And what happened last year with her husband has haunted me because he is sick. Truly sick. He didn't try or actively do anything, it's just other stuff. He is a mess.

They are both sick people.

 

[brenda]

I wouldn't force her into seeing truths that she is not ready for, but concentrate on how she is making you feel. Its a very sad situation. It looks like the benefits from the friendship have too high a cost to you, but anyway, even just for noe you need a break from it.

 

[Kati]

I wouldn't force her into seeing truths that she is not ready for, but concentrate on how she is making you feel. Its a very sad situation. It looks like the benefits from the friendship have too high a cost to you, but anyway, even just for noe you need a break from it.

I very much agree with that. When you sent me the book and material, I felt... and I also felt...
Therefore I have no better choice than sending you this material back ( or whatever decision you made)

What I need from you is ...

In this way, you are giving an opportunity to salvage the relationship if she and you feel it can be salvaged and taken in a different direction which doesn't include health advice. Basically setting clear boundaries, in that regards.
At this point, it will be up to you and her, and whether she can accept and respect these new boundaries you have set up.

I can appreciate feelings of fear in regards to who to turn to when you are in an emergency situation or in need. i was in emergency a couple of weeks ago and the receptionist had to verify my contact information and my closest contact is 3000 miles away. it sounds like I will need to source my services when I will need them for my incoming surgery and I will have to pay for that.

 

[jeff_w]

@Misfit Toy - I completely agree with @Kati .

The more you make the letter about what you need, and less you make it about her flaws, the better. You don't want her to perceive the letter as a personal attack, because then she'll be more likely to get defensive and less likely to listen to and digest what you say.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Here's my dilemma...I don't think she will change. This is just who she is. The letter is all how I feel with the way she treats me. I'm tired of being overly nice. We've never had a major fight. Because we aren't always in each others lives.

I told her how the book made me feel like she thinks I'm stupid. That I don't know enough about Perimenopause and hormones. That her telling me that I am the only person she talks to on the phone whenever I call, makes me shiver.

How I'm tired of her trying to direct my life and telling me where to go and who to go to her to see and what book to read and then just sending the books. But I always respect her boundaries but she doesn't respect mine.

That I'm tired of always going to where she wants to go for for lunch. I feel like she controls the whole situation and it's been that way for years and I'm sick of it.

That the whole thing that happened with her husband and myself (that he wanted to happen) was extremely stressful and it blew up right after I had come home from Wyoming and all she wanted was details for days and I was exhausted from the trip and I had an infection. That it sucked and was a horrible position that I was put in. It was his doing, I didn't take the bait, but I had to reveal everything to her knowing full well she won't leave him. I told her I was drained.

I told her that instead of trying to fix me, perhaps you need to concentrate on your life.

I told her I am upset, hurt, sad and that I love her. That I will always love her but I'm too ill for this.

I can't do this anymore...being pushed, prodded and made to defend myself constantly.

@Kati -I think I will be going in for surgery again. My wrist. I have bone overgrowth or a cyst and the PT wants to get me to a surgeon...the surgeon. I will also hire someone, too. Ugh. I think the pins and plate will need to come out. This lump in wrist is huge. Maybe we can be each others support team even if it's long distance. I will be your designated "let me bitch to person."

More reason I can't deal with this BS.-another surgery.

 

[Kati]

@Kati -I think I will be going in for surgery again. My wrist. I have bone overgrowth or a cyst and the PT wants to get me to a surgeon...the surgeon. I will also hire someone, too. Ugh. I think the pins and plate will need to come out. This lump in wrist is huge. Maybe we can be each others support team even if it's long distance. I will be your designated "let me bitch to person."

More reason I can't deal with this BS.-another surgery.

Oh no, sorry to hear about another surgery for you. i know how difficult it has been. i hope this time will be much different.

My surgery will probably not be for a while. i suspect a year to 18 months but I am willing to be surprised.

 

[Valentijn]

@jeff_w - I get the same impression from the use of gifts. It can be a mechanism to control people, especially if they have trouble making and keeping friends without it.

 

[Misfit Toy]

@Kati -that's such a long time but I'm still so happy this will finally happen for you. I hope it's sooner!

@Valentijn -she had such a messed up childhood. Her mom was Mommy Dearest to the fullest. So sad. I hate it. She took a mirror once and threw it at my friends face when she was five and broke her teeth. . I tear up from that. Another reason I turn my head to her controlling behavior.

Plus she is in a marriage that most people would not be able to tolerate. It's too dysfunctional and no one would really respect her for being with him. It's beyond abusive.

She has told me something to that effect as well.

 

[WoolPippi]

I'm taking Progesterone. 100 mg per day. A broad spetrum anaylis showed I was deficient, I was at male levels at day 21 of the cycle. That's 600% too few for a female
100 mg micronized oral prog gets converted by the liver to 10 mg active Prog. which is what the human body needs daily, regardless of sex. In healthy young persons and post menopause women and men it's made in the adrenals

Nobody should ever take Prog. without knowing their blood and urine levels, in a broad spectrum hormonal anaylises. Your friend can go and eat dung.

These days I'm feeling awful. Depsperate. Typical estrogen-overload. I took a prog. pill an hour ago, it's morning here I useually take it at night, and I'm clearly overdosing. I'm dopey, sleepy and stoned. THis Prog. pill is converted to Pregnenolone at the moment, the strongest sleeping drug aroud/ Stronger then barbiturates.
It causes all the typos you see here... and I;ve already corrected many of them. It'll take four hours to wear off.

I've been here before. I'm going to sleep it off. Clearly my mood swings aren't caused by Prog. deficiency.

Taking Prog. is something you've gotta do when you know what you're doing. Your friend should be shouted at. Pity that fool. Her life and circumstances are no excuse for pushing this on you. Hormones are like kerosine: very powerful. To be handled by experts (either dr.s or people with lots of experience like myself. We still mess up. But at least we know what we're doing)
zzzzzzzgood luck zzzzz

ps I now see you are talking about NPC, the cream. This is not converted by the liver, this goes straight into the blood stream and nerves. (it's a neuro transmitter).
10 mg is what you need maximum from NPC, that;s the daily dose. 90 mg or 45 mg is way too much.
Or go by symptoms but for that you need experience with this type of HRT.
I use NPC for menstrual cycle things. It effects different from the micronized oral pill I mention above.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I wanted to follow up with something...for those who have followed this. I sent a letter to the person (my friend), with her progesterone cream and the books that she had bought me including one on how back pain is all in the head.

Her response was very short, an apology but very short and admitting that she is as she put it, "effed up" and put her coping mechanisms onto me. Her coping mechanisms are to deal with things piecemeal and to go from one thing to another.

I felt that my letter was quite lengthy explaining several upsets including her husband and an uncomfortable situation I was put in by him last year. There was no response.

My gut feeling knowing her is that she feels guilt, but also I held a mirror up and she didn't like it. She justified it in some ways and is just who she is. Also, because she knows she is "effed up" she knows it, but is now angry at me because I am not accepting of it. She didn't say that...I just know her. That is my sense. She has never handled criticism, not that I have ever given her any. I never gave it because I knew that about her.

Anyway, more than likely the friendship is over. It's hard, but I am coming to terms with it. I know myself and I will process it over a long time.

 

[Kati]

I wanted to follow up with something...for those who have followed this. I sent a letter to the person (my friend), with her progesterone cream and the books that she had bought me including one on how back pain is all in the head.

Her response was very short, an apology but very short and admitting that she is as she put it, "effed up" and put her coping mechanisms onto me. Her coping mechanisms are to deal with things piecemeal and to go from one thing to another.

I felt that my letter was quite lengthy explaining several upsets including her husband and an uncomfortable situation I was put in by him last year. There was no response.

My gut feeling knowing her is that she feels guilt, but also I held a mirror up and she didn't like it. She justified it in some ways and is just who she is. Also, because she knows she is "effed up" she knows it, but is now angry at me because I am not accepting of it. She didn't say that...I just know her. That is my sense. She has never handled criticism, not that I have ever given her any. I never gave it because I knew that about her.

Anyway, more than likely the friendship is over. It's hard, but I am coming to terms with it. I know myself and I will process it over a long time.

Sometimes it is easier to fix other people than fix yourself. Facing our own challenges proves to be too much for some.

A partial quote from "Maid in Manatthan": "we wish them well"

 

[Misfit Toy]

@Kati -love that movie!