Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Cort, Jul 10, 2009.
Tony why do you think he said only ONCE per day? And not at EVERY meal?
I think because if you take too much Betaine you can get the runs. So just with the main protein meal may be enough for most? Everyone's a bit different though, as always...
It increases levels of stomach acid the "HCL" in Betaine HCL means hydrochloride. Taking too much makes your stomach acid too strong. It also has the potential to mess up Glutathione production if too much is taken.
Really? Can you explain more about how that works @Leopardtail ? (Or anyone else). Glutathione seems key...
Betaine HCL is turned into TMG glycine in the gut. That causes Homocysteine to be transformed into Methionine (good in moderation). Homocysteine is also needed to make Glutathione.
This means overdosing on Betaine HCL can both cause high stomach acid and reduce Glutatathione production.
I recently had tests done "Glutatathione" is symptomatically important but may be caused by poor ATP production (in me it was). Glutatathione is definitely important, exactly how important is the subject of much debate.
Glutathione is important for getting some chemical out of the body thus preventing damage - it's the chemical weapons defence of the immune system (as opposed the bit that deals with infections).
Interesting. I was under the impression that Betain HCL was a Methyl donor and supported Glutathione production through the Methylation process(sourced on this board from Rich Van)
I need large doses 6x 650mg(this dose and above are NOT unheard of on other forums)caps are needed when H.Pylori infection is active(with me)and only 2x 650mg caps when I am H.Pylori negative
I think the general consensus is that most CFS/ME patients have LOW stomach acid levels. Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride has stated that 'GI infections almost always cause low stomach acid levels'. KDM has mentioned low stomach acid in ME/CFS patients many times
Low stomach acid levels also render Zinc supplementation problematic @Hip has noticed this and so have MANY other PR members
But hey we are all DIFFERENT! and what works or is needed in one person can differ greatly in another!
Re Stomach Acid
I agree completely re the stomach acid, it's needed for the absorption of a vast range or nutrients (it's there for a reason). I also agree that some betaine is a useful way of improving levels, I used to suffer low stomach acid and used betaine to get it back up again. I did however lower Homocysteine and thus Glutathione and give myself excessive stomach acid by taking too much.
I have also come across large numbers of people who needed to take proton pump inhibitors because they took too much betaine. Like most nutrients it's good in the right amounts but you can take too much. I am not advocating that one doesn't take it, but that it be taken in the right amounts.
Re Glutathione Production (a balancing act)
Like so much of biochemistry Methylation and Glutathione are a balancing act. For Glutathione productoin to occur two things are needed: homocysteine must be converted into cysteine (the raw material for Glutathione) and also Homocysteine must be converted into S-AdeonsylMethionine into order to support many processes. This is where the balancing act comes in, it you force production of too much Homocysteine to Methionine its unavailable as raw material for Glut production, but if you do not create enough SAMe then the enzymes that produce Glut are not enabled.
Rich van K. did a very long and complex presentation on the balancing act of correct levels of Methylation for Glut production (it took me six watches and note taking to understand it).
A similar balancing act occurs with Methylation and production vs destruction of Dopamine on the Catecholamine pathway.
Nothing is simple with ME is it?
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