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The Fight is on...Imperial College XMRV Study

natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
It would have been under the name of SchlumbergerSema if pre-1995, no?

...The task of administrating the PCA was contracted out to SchlumbergerSema, which was then taken over (along with its DWP assets) by the US corporation Atos Origin; and in 2005 Atos Origin won a further 500m contract. Claims for benefit were assessed by Atos employees with no medical training, using a computer system called Logical Integrated Medical Assessment (LIMA).... http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/articles/rutherford07.html
 

natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
It would have been under the name of SchlumbergerSema if pre-1995, no?

...The task of administrating the PCA was contracted out to SchlumbergerSema, which was then taken over (along with its DWP assets) by the US corporation Atos Origin; and in 2005 Atos Origin won a further 500m contract. Claims for benefit were assessed by Atos employees with no medical training, using a computer system called Logical Integrated Medical Assessment (LIMA).... http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/ar...herford07.html

meant to say 2005
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Mithriel has discouraged people from reading the Report of the "GSRME" - the so-called "Gibson Report", on the grounds of length.

Copy here: http://www.erythos.com/gibsonenquiry/Report.html

I would not discourage people from reading this document. It is less than 30 pages long (several pages being taken up with the Canadian Criteria) and it is a very light read - it can be skimmed in a matter of minutes.

When reading this document, please be aware that it is littered with errors, misconceptions and ambiguities. All the national UK patient organisations, and a number of patient advocates, had formally called for the errors and ambiguities within this document to be corrected, between November 2006 and January 2007.

Dr Ian Gibson, who had set up and chaired this unofficial inquiry, himself, failed to act on these concerns.

The report had been published electronically and sent out to all 600 odd MPs, to government officials and to the media before the ME patient community and patient organisations had had sight of it, with no consultation process having taken place and with no procedures in place for addressing errors.

Ann Cryer, Secretary to the GSRME panel, resigned the day after the report was published. The panel started to break up shortly after the public meeting in January 2007 to discuss the report's content.

Dr Gibson was unable to gather all the members of the panel together for that public meeting to discuss the report and how it might be used as a political campaigning tool. After the meeting, he had difficulty getting the remaining panel members to respond to requests to discuss the matter of corrections. In May 2007, the panel formally disbanded. Dr Gibson told me in November 2007 that as his panel had disbanded, he had no mandate to correct the errors, himself.

At the January 2007 public meeting (some of which has been transcribed by me and which I will make available if requested) Dr Gibson had said:

"...We tried within our limitations of assessing the evidence as best we could, I don't pretend in any way that it is perfect. As someone who assesses evidence and still reviews papers I know you need quite a long time to go into the evidence and actually assess it and so on, and you're not always right then, so I don't feel guilty if we've got some things wrong, that's quite possible, that we can also look at it and change it again and so on."

But no corrections were made.

There were several areas which this unofficial inquiry could have usefully looked into - but chose not to.

Dr Gibson had drawn up the inquiry's Terms of Reference without proper consultation with the inquiry's constituency of interest and his panel (not surprisingly) found itself bogged down with a large cupboard full of "written evidence" but with no time and no resources to deal with it.

My view is that this was a very poorly carried out inquiry and that the Gibson panel had no clear idea of what was expected of them, and no clear idea of the inquiry's scope and remit. But that is the fault of the chair and the fault of the ME community for allowing Gibson to set about this unofficial inquiry when there were so many unresolved concerns about its lack of status, its scope, the make-up of its panel, its lack of resources and dedicated administrative staff.

Gibson just wanted "to get to the bottom" of ME/CFS "once and for all".

A scientific inquiry or a political inquiry?

At one point, Dr Gibson had said that his inquiry was not going to get "involved with the political issues"!

The inquiry was described as looking into the scientific research since the CMO's Report. But at the public meeting, in January 2007, the Countess of Mar, who had been a GSRME panel member, wished the meeting to note that:

"...The other thing is that quite a lot of the criticism that I've seen has been for the fact that we got the science wrong. This was never, ever, ever a scientific inquiry - it was a political inquiry into the science. So please don't think that we're scientists trying to put out a duff scientific report - we're not. It's got nothing to do with technical science as far as we're concerned - we were looking at the research that has been put in and I look forward to waiting to hear what you have to say..."


I've picked out just a few examples of the standard of this document:

2.4 ME in Teenagers and Children
We included this section because it was previously thought that children could not have CFS/ME.


What does this mean? The panel had taken the CMO's Report as its starting point in which there is a section and Annex devoted to "CFS/ME" in children and young people.

The Group received numerous submissions from parents whose children had or were suspected to have CFS/ME. It has been thought that children could not suffer from CFS/ME.

When? By whom? Up until what point? By the medical profession? By some or all of the panel members? By the public? No references are supplied. (But the document is very poorly referenced throughout.)

...but the Group accepts that CFS/ME is prevalent amongst teenagers and possibly in children.

[The Countess of Mar is a Patron to The Young ME Sufferers Trust.]

Possibly in children?

Dr Gibson had to be lobbied to extend an invitation to Dr Nigel Speight, who for many years specialised in children with ME and CFS, to present at one of the five "oral hearings". Dr Speight's slides are posted on the Gibson Inquiry website, but there is no reference at all in the Gibson Report to Dr Speight's having presented to the panel around ME in children (and in young children) - though there are several references to Prof Trudie Chalder, about whose work the panel writes:

"4.3 Cognitive Behavioural Therapy

The most effective psychological therapy, which has been shown as such in controlled clinical trials, is Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT). This treatment has shown to be effective in patients with many long term illnesses for example cancer. Prof Trudie Chalder presented to the group on this treatment. Prof Chandler’s [sic] results were impressive. This treatment certainly has a role to play in treating CFS/ME.


Returning to the section: 2.4 ME in Teenagers and Children

However it is very unlikely to occur in infants and young children and so should not be confused with Munchausen by proxy for example.

None of those to whom I spoke could make any sense of this statement, at all. I contacted Dr Gibson for an explanation. His response confirmed that the group supported the highly controversial construct of "MSbP" but shed little light on what the panel had actually understood by what they had written in the report.

(The wording of this section was also queried by Jane Colby of TYMES Trust.)

Page 19 3.2

There is conflicting evidence available regarding Wessely’s true opinions. The Group invited Wesseley [sic] to speak at an Oral Hearing, however he declined the offer and sent his colleagues Dr Trudie Chandler [sic] and Dr Anthony Cleare. The Group were disappointed not to have the opportunity to discuss this important issue with such a key figure. Wessely did not submit a written piece to the Inquiry, however in a letter to the Inquiry he did set out his belief that CFS/ME has a biological element which needs further research and investigation.


Note: Dr Gibson's admin who was minute taker at the "oral hearing" at which Chalder and Cleare presented later walked off the job, taking his meeting notes with him (which were later retrieved but were indecipherable). Gibson's admin did not consider it appropriate to advertise the date and venue and participants for Oral Hearings 2 and 3. Consequently, very few members of the public were able to attend these public hearings and they were held virtually in camera.

In order to avoid this happening for subsequent hearings, I was responsible for a pro bono, dedicated website being put at Dr Gibson's disposal by a webmaster friend in order that the dates and times of future oral hearings could be advertised. Gibson had already been offered free webspace for the purpose of disseminating information about the inquiry by others, early on in the inquiry, but he had failed to take up any of these offers.

The panel says it was disappointed that Wessely did not accept the invitation to attend one of the oral hearings. Dr Gibson has described the letter that Wessely sent to the panel as "lengthy". This was a public inquiry and Wessely should have submitted material through the proper channels.

I asked for this document to be released.

Dr Gibson advised me that he considered that the letter sent to the panel by Prof Simon Wessely was "a piece of personal correspondence never meant for the public" and that in his opinion, it should remain that way and later, that Prof Wessely had responded to a request to release this document but that he was in agreement with Dr Gibson that the letter should not be released.

So the Gibson panel was informed by a document (and there is a reference to the Wessely letter in the "Gibson Report") which is not being put in the public domain. It is therefore impossible to evaluate whether the panel made a fair and balanced assessment of its content or to what extent the letter's content may have informed the panel's deliberations, views and opinions and hence the content of the report, itself.

This was wrong.

Either Wessely should have been prepared to submit material through the same channel that everyone else was expected to use, or the panel should not have been prepared to accept his communication. (Note the Report, in any case, failed to provide a List of Written Submissions in an Annex or Appendix.)

3.3.4 Vaccination
Vaccination is often blamed for unexplained outbreaks of illness and regularly appears in the media being accused of such. The Group found that there is no strong evidence to link CFS/ME to vaccination and it is unlikely to be a cause. However this is a possible area for further investigation.


According to the Countess of Mar, the panel were not a scientific panel - so why did they take it upon themselves to attempt to evaluate research? (Dr Charles Shepherd was most concerned about this section and had raised his concerns at the public meeting which resulted in an argument with Dr Gibson - a section I have also transcribed.)

4.7.2 Diet and Supplementary

There is no scientific proof of benefit from the use of vitamin or other dietary supplements. However if any of these have been found symptomatically helpful by individual patients the effect should be welcomed but a search through the shelves of the health food shops should not be encouraged with any optimism.


This standard of report writing is embarrassing coming from a group of parliamentarians, especially given that Gibson and Turner had been medical researchers, themselves. The panel had also included two former medical professionals (Lord Turnberg and Dr Richard Taylor). The panel had also included Baroness Cumberlege who has been involved in higher status reports.

Yet they all signed off on this report.

4.2 Existing Treatments

There are 3 psychosocial therapies commonly used to treat CFS/ME in the UK. Psychosocial methods of treatment do have a role to play as the relation between mind and body in disease is complex.


The report lists "Pacing" as one of these "3 psychosocial therapies used to treat CFS/ME in the UK".

The panel was asked to correct this, they did not.

4.7.1 Pharmacological

Drug therapies are uniformly disappointing in the treatment of severe CFS/ME. Palliation may be helpful and should be attempted. Analgesics and antiinflammatory [sic] agents may provide some pain relief as they can act on the myalgia. Opiates must be used as a last resort because of the probability of addiction and then only after full advice and appropriate treatment from a specialist pain clinic...


What was this panel doing in becoming prescriptive around medications?

6.1

At present CFS/ME is defined as a psychosocial illness by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) and medical insurance companies. Therefore claimants are not entitled to the higher level of benefit payments.


This is incorrect. The panel was asked to correct this statement but failed to do so - so this misconception gets repeated by the media.

6.3 How the Department for Work and Pensions Formulates

CFS/ME Policy

There are genuine problems in the benefit assessment procedures for CFS/ME and as yet there is no agreement on new written guidance to replace that which is currently in use. This consultation process, involving meetings and redrafting, has been going on for over a year, but government looks like adopting a new benefits policy which may still leave it discriminating against claimants with CFS/ME.

There have been numerous cases where advisors to the DWP have also had consultancy roles in medical insurance companies. Particularly the Company UNUMProvident. Given the vested interest private medical insurance companies have in ensuring CFS/ME remain classified as a psychosocial illness there is blatant conflict of interest here. The Group find this to be an area for serious concern and recommends a full investigation of this possibility by the appropriate standards body. It may even be that assessment by a medical ‘expert’ in a field of high controversy requires a different methodology of benefit assessment.


But Gibson did nothing to take any of these several issues forward.


7.1
There is a great deal of frustration amongst the CFS/ME community that the progress made in the late 1980s and early 1990s toward regarding CFS/ME as a physical illness has been marginalised by the psychological school of thought. It is clear the CFS/ME community is extremely hostile to the psychiatrists involved.

The Group does not intend to criticise the motivations or actions of any one group, our aim is to build consensus from this point forward. Indeed the Group wishes to avoid being distracted by debates centring on semantics in this difficult and contentious field.


For commentary see document:

http://twentysixsoldiersoflead.word...ughts-on-the-gibson-report-by-angela-kennedy/


So do read this document and when doing so, bear in mind that the report resulted out of an unofficial inquiry set up and chaired by Dr Ian Gibson, MP (now a former MP) as a substitute for the high level, independent, inquiry with a panel of experts that he had set himself the task of obtaining within a very short timeframe, but failed to achieve.

The inquiry was not commissioned, nor was it carried out by a select committee nor by any form of Parliamentary Committee. It does not have the authority of either House. No government department was obliged to respond to its recommendations - and no responses were received. It is not a "Parliamentary Report" or an "official government document" (it has been necessary to challenge these misassumptions on Wikipedia and elsewhere).

The panel could have usefully done some in depth investigation into any of the following:

Benefits and DLA issues
Bias over MRC allocation of funding
Children's issues - access to education, false accusations of MSbP (FII)
Concerns over the treatment models being offered in many of the CFS clinics that were in the process of being rolled out.


(The report "welcomes" the clinics and makes no mention of concerns about what many of these clinics would be offering to patients - concerns that Gibson and his panel would have been aware, nor for the fact that many clinics were destined to be sited within psychiatric departments.)

The UNUM issue

Instead it got bogged down with a cupboard full of "evidence", submissions, lengthy documents that busy parliamentarians would have had little time to plough through and allowed itself to stray into areas like becoming prescriptive over supplements, the use of opiates etc. It could not even get its facts right over Higher Level DLA.

I have seen several unofficial reports that Ian Gibson has been involved in, in the past. I would say that this is the poorest report chaired by him that I have seen.
 

flybro

Senior Member
Messages
706
Location
pluto
The Gibson Enquiry make direct reference to

Wessely gave up the research side of his work, possibly due to extreme harassment he received from a very small fringe section of the ME community.

and this

There have been numerous cases where advisors to the DWP have also had consultancy roles in medical insurance companies. Particularly the Company UNUMProvident. Given the vested interest private medical insurance companies have in ensuring CFS/ME remain classified as a psychosocial illness there is blatant conflict of interest here. The Group find this to be an area for serious concern and recommends a full investigation of this possibility by the appropriate standards body. It may even be that assessment by a medical expert in a field of high controversy requires a different methodology of benefit assessment.

Gibson did nothing to take any of these several issues forward.


Why, am I not shocked?

I hope people reading this thread have some idea how really incredulous this is.

I was raised on the Greatness of Great Britain.

I hope, those that I know exist out there, the decent professionals. I hope some of them will please do something to help this patient community.

Current recommended treatments, are dangerous, and proven tests and treatments are being with held.

We need some heros.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
Mithriel has discouraged people from reading the Report of the "GSRME" - the so-called "Gibson Report", on the grounds of length.

Just for the record I mentioned the Gibson report but didn't give a link because I didn't feel up to searching for it. If someone discouraged reading it, it wasn't me :Retro smile:

For US readers Insurance problems in the UK are not for medicine they are part of employment. So much is taken off a salary every month to safeguard income if you become too ill to work. I have friends with MS who are on half salary for the rest of their lives. With CFS people do not get this income because

1. It is not paid out for psychological problems.
2. It is not paid out for a temporary illness.

This is where the ideas of the psychologists are so beloved by the insurance industry.

ME was never used in the US; they called it epidemic neurasthenia.

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Documented-involvement-of-viruses-in-ME.htm

What we say sounds like a conspiracy theory because there actually is a conspiracy against us. The above document makes that clear.

For years after SW rewrote ME as CFS, the Kings College website said that neurasthenia was well known until the beginning of the twentieth century but then it disappeared for years until it reemerged in the eighties.

The epidemics were simply ignored. This killing off of promising avenues by ignoring them has continued.

Mithriel
 

flybro

Senior Member
Messages
706
Location
pluto
Mithriel
What we say sounds like a conspiracy theory because there actually is a conspiracy against us.

Thanks Mirthiel, I keep trying to find a short way of saying exactly that.

This would have seemed ludicrous to me. Never, here in Britain.

A few years of desperately trying to find out what the hell happened to you, what stole your life.

Following in the 'establishments advice'. Continued detorioration of physical and cognitvie abilities.

The things that have been found to help, getting withheld.

Being treated like a charlatan, insulted by the incompetant attempts of the unqualified to manage this psychologically.

In frustration and desperation turning to the internet patient communities for help.

Suddenly realasing that the multitude of peculiar symptoms are common here.

Other people as frustarted as me, people with children with this disease.

How can i fail to shockingly feel that
there actually is a conspiracy against us
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
Flybro, I often feel that everyone talks back and forth about details, patients, doctors, politicians but no one steps back and looks at the big picture.

As you say, we are not getting better, we look ill, we have the same symptoms when we talk together from all over the world.

The whole point of the medical industry is to make people as well as possible. There should not be patients lying in bed for years with no medical input AND NO ONE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHY.

Mithriel
 

joyscobby

Senior Member
Messages
156
Flybro, I often feel that everyone talks back and forth about details, patients, doctors, politicians but no one steps back and looks at the big picture.

As you say, we are not getting better, we look ill, we have the same symptoms when we talk together from all over the world.

The whole point of the medical industry is to make people as well as possible. There should not be patients lying in bed for years with no medical input AND NO ONE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHY.

Mithriel

Like in the US we in the UK have to question role of some of our so called Advocacy Groups in this. I know that some people have raised questions over certain ones in the UK but do I not know my self enough about it to speak about it. I have had experience before over other issues been made aware that not all of theese supprort groups pupport to be what they claim ie acting in the best interest of the people they claim to represent. I therefore have avoided them. All I know for some seem to be working for us and some are not it maybe useful to distinguish who they are so people know who look to for support and who to trust.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Just for the record I mentioned the Gibson report but didn't give a link because I didn't feel up to searching for it. If someone discouraged reading it, it wasn't me :Retro smile:

Apologies, Mithriel. Where you had written:

A few years ago, the Gibson report, drawn up by a group of MPs after a lengthy inquiry, called for the fact that SW and co were involved with the insurance companies and the DWP who stood to gain by making CFS a mental health issue to be investigated. This was not done.

Go to the MEAction site and you will find all the information you need. Please don't demand it to be all posted here, there are pages and pages of it.

I misread this as implying that you would not post the Gibson Report, here, due to length.

On re-reading your comment, I see that what you are referring to is material on the ME Action UK website, not to the "Gibson Report", per se.

Also, I see I have omitted a further quote from the report, which I had intended to include, which is:

4.3 Cognitive Behavioural Therapy

[...]

Prof Chalder suggested that CBT has a biological effect on the body. The Group would
like to see further research into what this effect is as it may open avenues of
investigation into biomedical causes.


and another from section 4.6

It seems probable that, as with most other diseases, there is likely to be a
physical element and a psychological element to the illness. Therefore successful
treatment pays attention “holistically” to the whole person, caring for the mind
and body. For some doctors to deny the existence of a physical part of the illness
is as equally unhelpful as the claim by some patient groups that there is no
psychological element to the disease.

The close link with depression in many ME cases may be explained by the nature
of the illness. It is likely the inactivity and lethargy caused by the ME combined
with psychological aspects such as the sense that professionals do not believe
them, social stigma, lack of classification or possibility of a cure, leave the ME
sufferer more disillusioned than those with other chronically disabling diseases
and thus more prone to depression. However, all diseases have an admixture of
the two and teasing out the contribution each makes in an individual patient is
clearly an important matter for further research.


and from 4.7.1 Pharmacological

[...]

If depression is felt to be a significant result from the illness and contributing to its
overall effects then anti-depressants may help if prescribed with full explanation
by the doctor. Other symptoms should be treated only when the doctor has
absolutely excluded any other underlying organic illness that could be the cause.


Again, what did this group of parliamentarians think they were doing getting into areas like recommending medications and treatments????

And why was Gibson not challenged by the patient orgs for having strayed uncomfortably beyond what this panel were qualified to pronounce on?

I find this aspect as disturbing now as I did in November 2006, when the report was issued.

How about this from 5.2 Research issues

[...]

By contrast, since April 2003 the MRC has funded five applications relating to
CFS/ME, mostly in the psychiatric/psychosocial domain (Professor Francis Creed,
Professor K Bhui, Professor Peter White’s PACE trial, Alison Wearden’s FINE trial
and Richard Morriss’ study of “medically unexplained symptoms”). These are to
be welcomed of course since they are largely concerned with efforts to confirm or
refute the nature of different forms of therapy in carefully controlled trials.
However it is important for the MRC to be seen to be balancing this with support
for more high quality basic research into potential causes.



Gibson also got involved in an EDM and a subsequent parliamentary debate around Eating Disorders in which he suggested that schoolgirls needed to get out onto the hockey pitch and forget about their bodies.

They didn't call him "Rent a Gob" for nothing.

Suzy
 

flex

Senior Member
Messages
304
Location
London area
2.
What we say sounds like a conspiracy theory because there actually is a conspiracy against us. The above document makes that clear.

For years after SW rewrote ME as CFS, the Kings College website said that neurasthenia was well known until the beginning of the twentieth century but then it disappeared for years until it reemerged in the eighties.

The epidemics were simply ignored. This killing off of promising avenues by ignoring them has continued.

Mithriel


I agree Mithriel

"Neurasthenia" disappered at beginning of the 20th century because of the advancement of medical understanding! This was at the same time that they stopped calling MS "The Malingerers Disease"! It "reappered" in the 80,s when one Mr Simon Wessely, in bed with the insurance industry as their Psychic Biostitute reintvented it to cover up the facts behind ME. There are many other examples of medical ignorance in the past doing the same thing.

Its a much worse dynamic now because of the insurance, medical and non medical industry. This is all underpinned by the UK goverment Plc. Which incidentally forces Insurance contributions on the public.

The dividend is paid out , in the form of cost cutting to the public and in the form of Grants and budgets to the psyche lobby sometimes directly into private companies for "services" to the NHS. SWs job is obviously to be "THE MINISTER IN CHARGE OF DENIAL"


If one more person suggests this is a "conspiracy theory" I am really going to go away and boil my head in a pan of IRON BRU!!!
 

Advocate

Senior Member
Messages
529
Location
U.S.A.
I'd like to call it the Simon Wessely study

... over his possible failure to declare competing interests.

I propose that we never call it the Imperial College study and that we never refer to it by any of the other study authors. I propose that we always call it the Simon Wessely study. We should do this to emphasize the patient selection bias, which they tried to cover up with a single sentence, almost an afterthought in fine print, at the end of the study: "SW".

They brought out this quickie study for political reasons. We should fight back by calling it the Simon Wessely study.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Gibson was also a media nightmare and was never able to talk to the press about ME in a meaningful way...

Transcript: BBC Radio Norfolk, Ian Gibson, May 2007

[...]

"Well, it, I mean it varies in different people but, I mean, it can be much, it can put people right out of action. It can be, in bed for weeks and they just feel generally ill, muscular problems and so on and just feeling really down.

I mean, the flu kind of symptoms kinda describe some of the symptoms but the weakness of people needed some kind of approach medically and the medics in general just thought that some kind of cognitive therapy would be good enough. Well it helps but its not good enough. We need to have a real understanding of what causes it..."


Full transcript here: http://meagenda.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/transcript-bbc-radio-norfolk-ian-gibson-may-2007/


One of his worst gaffs was in a media interview around the higher levels of diabetes prevalent in the Norfolk area.


Well...says Gibson...they're inbred.

He was hugely criticised for this by residents of the Norfolk area and elsewhere. He later put out that he was using the term "inbred" in the scientific research sense. But it was too late. In the UK, Joe Blogg's understanding of "inbred" is - well, let's not go there...

Anyhoo, I'm way off topic...
 
K

Katie

Guest
I propose that we never call it the Imperial College study and that we never refer to it by any of the other study authors. I propose that we always call it the Simon Wessely study. We should do this to emphasize the patient selection bias, which they tried to cover up with a single sentence, almost an afterthought in fine print, at the end of the study: "SW".

They brought out this quickie study for political reasons. We should fight back by calling it the Simon Wessely study.

I actually would stick with IC because there are and always have been more dirty hands flying round than just Wessely. He's the poster boy for the Wessely school, but we mustn't forget McClure's over reaching comments and Cleare's name that turns up on the psych papers. Tunnel vision will mean we miss the actions of these other Wessely School folk.

As I compromise, I recon the McClure/Wessely study should get the key players.
 

leelaplay

member
Messages
1,576
Suzy - you so rock!

Thank you for explaining the context, history, authorization, manouevers, and members of the 'Gibson Report' and highlighting some of the key absurdities in these and the report itself.

The chunking and highlighting really helps my processing. You have made this information accessible to me.

islandfinn:Retro smile:

Mithriel has discouraged people from reading the Report of the "GSRME" - the so-called "Gibson Report", on the grounds of length.

Copy here: http://www.erythos.com/gibsonenquiry/Report.html

I would not discourage people from reading this document. It is less than 30 pages long (several pages being taken up with the Canadian Criteria) and it is a very light read - it can be skimmed in a matter of minutes.

When reading this document, please be aware that it is littered with errors, misconceptions and ambiguities. All the national UK patient organisations, and a number of patient advocates, had formally called for the errors and ambiguities within this document to be corrected, between November 2006 and January 2007.

Dr Ian Gibson, who had set up and chaired this unofficial inquiry, himself, failed to act on these concerns.

The report had been published electronically and sent out to all 600 odd MPs, to government officials and to the media before the ME patient community and patient organisations had had sight of it, with no consultation process having taken place and with no procedures in place for addressing errors.

Ann Cryer, Secretary to the GSRME panel, resigned the day after the report was published. The panel started to break up shortly after the public meeting in January 2007 to discuss the report's content.

Dr Gibson was unable to gather all the members of the panel together for that public meeting to discuss the report and how it might be used as a political campaigning tool. After the meeting, he had difficulty getting the remaining panel members to respond to requests to discuss the matter of corrections. In May 2007, the panel formally disbanded. Dr Gibson told me in November 2007 that as his panel had disbanded, he had no mandate to correct the errors, himself.

At the January 2007 public meeting (some of which has been transcribed by me and which I will make available if requested) Dr Gibson had said:

"...We tried within our limitations of assessing the evidence as best we could, I don't pretend in any way that it is perfect. As someone who assesses evidence and still reviews papers I know you need quite a long time to go into the evidence and actually assess it and so on, and you're not always right then, so I don't feel guilty if we've got some things wrong, that's quite possible, that we can also look at it and change it again and so on."

But no corrections were made.

There were several areas which this unofficial inquiry could have usefully looked into - but chose not to.

Dr Gibson had drawn up the inquiry's Terms of Reference without proper consultation with the inquiry's constituency of interest and his panel (not surprisingly) found itself bogged down with a large cupboard full of "written evidence" but with no time and no resources to deal with it.

My view is that this was a very poorly carried out inquiry and that the Gibson panel had no clear idea of what was expected of them, and no clear idea of the inquiry's scope and remit. But that is the fault of the chair and the fault of the ME community for allowing Gibson to set about this unofficial inquiry when there were so many unresolved concerns about its lack of status, its scope, the make-up of its panel, its lack of resources and dedicated administrative staff.

Gibson just wanted "to get to the bottom" of ME/CFS "once and for all".

A scientific inquiry or a political inquiry?

At one point, Dr Gibson had said that his inquiry was not going to get "involved with the political issues"!

The inquiry was described as looking into the scientific research since the CMO's Report. But at the public meeting, in January 2007, the Countess of Mar, who had been a GSRME panel member, wished the meeting to note that:

"...The other thing is that quite a lot of the criticism that I've seen has been for the fact that we got the science wrong. This was never, ever, ever a scientific inquiry - it was a political inquiry into the science. So please don't think that we're scientists trying to put out a duff scientific report - we're not. It's got nothing to do with technical science as far as we're concerned - we were looking at the research that has been put in and I look forward to waiting to hear what you have to say..."


I've picked out just a few examples of the standard of this document:

2.4 ME in Teenagers and Children
We included this section because it was previously thought that children could not have CFS/ME.


What does this mean? The panel had taken the CMO's Report as its starting point in which there is a section and Annex devoted to "CFS/ME" in children and young people.

The Group received numerous submissions from parents whose children had or were suspected to have CFS/ME. It has been thought that children could not suffer from CFS/ME.

When? By whom? Up until what point? By the medical profession? By some or all of the panel members? By the public? No references are supplied. (But the document is very poorly referenced throughout.)

...but the Group accepts that CFS/ME is prevalent amongst teenagers and possibly in children.

[The Countess of Mar is a Patron to The Young ME Sufferers Trust.]

Possibly in children?

Dr Gibson had to be lobbied to extend an invitation to Dr Nigel Speight, who for many years specialised in children with ME and CFS, to present at one of the five "oral hearings". Dr Speight's slides are posted on the Gibson Inquiry website, but there is no reference at all in the Gibson Report to Dr Speight's having presented to the panel around ME in children (and in young children) - though there are several references to Prof Trudie Chalder, about whose work the panel writes:

"4.3 Cognitive Behavioural Therapy

The most effective psychological therapy, which has been shown as such in controlled clinical trials, is Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT). This treatment has shown to be effective in patients with many long term illnesses for example cancer. Prof Trudie Chalder presented to the group on this treatment. Prof Chandlers [sic] results were impressive. This treatment certainly has a role to play in treating CFS/ME.


Returning to the section: 2.4 ME in Teenagers and Children

However it is very unlikely to occur in infants and young children and so should not be confused with Munchausen by proxy for example.

None of those to whom I spoke could make any sense of this statement, at all. I contacted Dr Gibson for an explanation. His response confirmed that the group supported the highly controversial construct of "MSbP" but shed little light on what the panel had actually understood by what they had written in the report.

(The wording of this section was also queried by Jane Colby of TYMES Trust.)

Page 19 3.2

There is conflicting evidence available regarding Wesselys true opinions. The Group invited Wesseley [sic] to speak at an Oral Hearing, however he declined the offer and sent his colleagues Dr Trudie Chandler [sic] and Dr Anthony Cleare. The Group were disappointed not to have the opportunity to discuss this important issue with such a key figure. Wessely did not submit a written piece to the Inquiry, however in a letter to the Inquiry he did set out his belief that CFS/ME has a biological element which needs further research and investigation.


Note: Dr Gibson's admin who was minute taker at the "oral hearing" at which Chalder and Cleare presented later walked off the job, taking his meeting notes with him (which were later retrieved but were indecipherable). Gibson's admin did not consider it appropriate to advertise the date and venue and participants for Oral Hearings 2 and 3. Consequently, very few members of the public were able to attend these public hearings and they were held virtually in camera.

In order to avoid this happening for subsequent hearings, I was responsible for a pro bono, dedicated website being put at Dr Gibson's disposal by a webmaster friend in order that the dates and times of future oral hearings could be advertised. Gibson had already been offered free webspace for the purpose of disseminating information about the inquiry by others, early on in the inquiry, but he had failed to take up any of these offers.

The panel says it was disappointed that Wessely did not accept the invitation to attend one of the oral hearings. Dr Gibson has described the letter that Wessely sent to the panel as "lengthy". This was a public inquiry and Wessely should have submitted material through the proper channels.

I asked for this document to be released.

Dr Gibson advised me that he considered that the letter sent to the panel by Prof Simon Wessely was "a piece of personal correspondence never meant for the public" and that in his opinion, it should remain that way and later, that Prof Wessely had responded to a request to release this document but that he was in agreement with Dr Gibson that the letter should not be released.

So the Gibson panel was informed by a document (and there is a reference to the Wessely letter in the "Gibson Report") which is not being put in the public domain. It is therefore impossible to evaluate whether the panel made a fair and balanced assessment of its content or to what extent the letter's content may have informed the panel's deliberations, views and opinions and hence the content of the report, itself.

This was wrong.

Either Wessely should have been prepared to submit material through the same channel that everyone else was expected to use, or the panel should not have been prepared to accept his communication. (Note the Report, in any case, failed to provide a List of Written Submissions in an Annex or Appendix.)

3.3.4 Vaccination
Vaccination is often blamed for unexplained outbreaks of illness and regularly appears in the media being accused of such. The Group found that there is no strong evidence to link CFS/ME to vaccination and it is unlikely to be a cause. However this is a possible area for further investigation.


According to the Countess of Mar, the panel were not a scientific panel - so why did they take it upon themselves to attempt to evaluate research? (Dr Charles Shepherd was most concerned about this section and had raised his concerns at the public meeting which resulted in an argument with Dr Gibson - a section I have also transcribed.)

4.7.2 Diet and Supplementary

There is no scientific proof of benefit from the use of vitamin or other dietary supplements. However if any of these have been found symptomatically helpful by individual patients the effect should be welcomed but a search through the shelves of the health food shops should not be encouraged with any optimism.


This standard of report writing is embarrassing coming from a group of parliamentarians, especially given that Gibson and Turner had been medical researchers, themselves. The panel had also included two former medical professionals (Lord Turnberg and Dr Richard Taylor). The panel had also included Baroness Cumberlege who has been involved in higher status reports.

Yet they all signed off on this report.

4.2 Existing Treatments

There are 3 psychosocial therapies commonly used to treat CFS/ME in the UK. Psychosocial methods of treatment do have a role to play as the relation between mind and body in disease is complex.


The report lists "Pacing" as one of these "3 psychosocial therapies used to treat CFS/ME in the UK".

The panel was asked to correct this, they did not.

4.7.1 Pharmacological

Drug therapies are uniformly disappointing in the treatment of severe CFS/ME. Palliation may be helpful and should be attempted. Analgesics and antiinflammatory [sic] agents may provide some pain relief as they can act on the myalgia. Opiates must be used as a last resort because of the probability of addiction and then only after full advice and appropriate treatment from a specialist pain clinic...


What was this panel doing in becoming prescriptive around medications?

6.1

At present CFS/ME is defined as a psychosocial illness by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) and medical insurance companies. Therefore claimants are not entitled to the higher level of benefit payments.


This is incorrect. The panel was asked to correct this statement but failed to do so - so this misconception gets repeated by the media.

6.3 How the Department for Work and Pensions Formulates

CFS/ME Policy

There are genuine problems in the benefit assessment procedures for CFS/ME and as yet there is no agreement on new written guidance to replace that which is currently in use. This consultation process, involving meetings and redrafting, has been going on for over a year, but government looks like adopting a new benefits policy which may still leave it discriminating against claimants with CFS/ME.

There have been numerous cases where advisors to the DWP have also had consultancy roles in medical insurance companies. Particularly the Company UNUMProvident. Given the vested interest private medical insurance companies have in ensuring CFS/ME remain classified as a psychosocial illness there is blatant conflict of interest here. The Group find this to be an area for serious concern and recommends a full investigation of this possibility by the appropriate standards body. It may even be that assessment by a medical expert in a field of high controversy requires a different methodology of benefit assessment.


But Gibson did nothing to take any of these several issues forward.


7.1
There is a great deal of frustration amongst the CFS/ME community that the progress made in the late 1980s and early 1990s toward regarding CFS/ME as a physical illness has been marginalised by the psychological school of thought. It is clear the CFS/ME community is extremely hostile to the psychiatrists involved.

The Group does not intend to criticise the motivations or actions of any one group, our aim is to build consensus from this point forward. Indeed the Group wishes to avoid being distracted by debates centring on semantics in this difficult and contentious field.


For commentary see document:

http://twentysixsoldiersoflead.word...ughts-on-the-gibson-report-by-angela-kennedy/


So do read this document and when doing so, bear in mind that the report resulted out of an unofficial inquiry set up and chaired by Dr Ian Gibson, MP (now a former MP) as a substitute for the high level, independent, inquiry with a panel of experts that he had set himself the task of obtaining within a very short timeframe, but failed to achieve.

The inquiry was not commissioned, nor was it carried out by a select committee nor by any form of Parliamentary Committee. It does not have the authority of either House. No government department was obliged to respond to its recommendations - and no responses were received. It is not a "Parliamentary Report" or an "official government document" (it has been necessary to challenge these misassumptions on Wikipedia and elsewhere).

The panel could have usefully done some in depth investigation into any of the following:

Benefits and DLA issues
Bias over MRC allocation of funding
Children's issues - access to education, false accusations of MSbP (FII)
Concerns over the treatment models being offered in many of the CFS clinics that were in the process of being rolled out.


(The report "welcomes" the clinics and makes no mention of concerns about what many of these clinics would be offering to patients - concerns that Gibson and his panel would have been aware, nor for the fact that many clinics were destined to be sited within psychiatric departments.)

The UNUM issue

Instead it got bogged down with a cupboard full of "evidence", submissions, lengthy documents that busy parliamentarians would have had little time to plough through and allowed itself to stray into areas like becoming prescriptive over supplements, the use of opiates etc. It could not even get its facts right over Higher Level DLA.

I have seen several unofficial reports that Ian Gibson has been involved in, in the past. I would say that this is the poorest report chaired by him that I have seen.
 
K

Knackered

Guest
There was a post earlier in this thread where someone said something 250,000 people in the UK suffer from CFS, out of those 250,000 people, I very much doubt 250,000 or 100% of them have ME or the true Canadian criteria CFS or whatever you wish to call it.

When the biological cause is found, I'd love to know what percent of people have biological CFS/ME.

If a test becomes available, what will happen to those people who have no biological cause? My hope is that it'll put an end to those people who are 'trying it on' if you know what I mean. Seriously though, what would happen with them?
 

Advocate

Senior Member
Messages
529
Location
U.S.A.
I have just read for the first time the Daily Mail report of a truckload of aluminum accidentally dumped into the water supply of a town in the UK--Camelford, in Cornwall. The newspaper story is on the ME Agenda website.

Apparently the dumping took place in July, 1988. The Daily Mail story appeared almost 20 years later, December 15, 2007.

According to the Daily Mail, not only did the water cause deadly health problems for residents and visitors, but there was collusion at all levels of government to cover it up.

Way down in the story there are these disturbing facts:

Two reports by Government appointed advisory groups in 1989 and 1991 [one to three years after the dumping] each concluded there was no evidence of aluminium poisoning of people in the Camelford area.

They claimed that any suffering had been provoked by anxiety rather than damage to health.

Here's what I'd like to know: Was Simon Wessely part of one of those advisory groups?
 

flybro

Senior Member
Messages
706
Location
pluto
I think the people that are 'trying it on' or 'pulling one',

wouldn't be interested in this news, won't be desperate to get tested while also being terrified of a psitive or negative result.

What benefits are there to faking this? those that do must have had really crap lives.
 
K

Knackered

Guest
I think the people that are 'trying it on' or 'pulling one',

wouldn't be interested in this news, won't be desperate to get tested while also being terrified of a psitive or negative result.

My sister's boyfriend's ex-wife's boyfriend has CFS. I've been told that when he's needed to do something he's sick, then Friday to Sunday he miraculously gets better and goes to watch football and goes to the pub and whatever else, he predicts when he isn't going to be well too, my sister says he isn't at all like me inregards to my illness. Maybe they just don't want to work. Offensive isn't it? I know I find it offensive.

I had this discussion with my mother, I can't wait for a test to come out, just to seperate the wheat from the chaff and so we get some legitimacy.

What benefits are there to faking this? those that do must have had really crap lives.

90 a week for doing sod all. I know it's difficult to believe but some people relish the idea.

Edit:
When I first developed ME I had to go to a medical centre and a doctor assessed me, my claim was denied to begin with because the doctor assumed I was malingering and lied on the report she made, I had to go to a tribunal. One of the points I made was:

"Do you honestly think I'd go from being a student at university whilst working for an engineering company and earning good money with a great social life to having to move back in with my parents to live off 70 a week?"

The doctors think some people do it, I think a lot of people do, it's sickening. And the people that do, when a test comes out and the people who have been trying it on have been found to have been, they should be made to pay every single bloody penny back. I'm sick of them trivializing my illness.
 
Messages
63
I have just read for the first time the Daily Mail report of a truckload of aluminum accidentally dumped into the water supply of a town in the UK--Camelford, in Cornwall. The newspaper story is on the ME Agenda website.
Here's what I'd like to know: Was Simon Wessely part of one of those advisory groups?


http://ruscombegreen.blogspot.com/2008/01/safe-water-camelford-cover-up-plus.html

"Interestingly one of the primary architects of this lethal cover-up was psychiatrist Professor Simon Wessely - has has been notorious for his equally scandalous cover-ups of the biomedical plight of Gulf War Veterans and ME/CFS labelled patients - the latter I had heard first hand from patients who had visited him - although to be fair I also heard from on person with ME who thought he was good."

"In the Journal of Psychosomatic Research, Vol 39, No 1. pp.1 9. 1995, Wessely together with his colleague Anthony David, published a paper entitled 'The Legend Of Camelford : Medical Consequences Of A Water Pollution Accident.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7760298 "There was little cause for concern," announced Wessely. He also accused Camelford residents of somatisation and the media of irresponsible reporting of this water-poisoning incident. Wessely apparently also blamed those affected of sensationalising their symptoms in order to get compensation."
 

dipic

Senior Member
Messages
215
90 a week for doing sod all. I know it's difficult to believe but some people relish the idea.

It's true. Look how many people are on welfare and fradulantly claim disability in America. My old man is a retired inner city cop and landlord - he's seen so much of it.

There are people out there who will fake all kinds ailiments so they can sit on their ass all day and do nothing; our illness is not immune to being used for that purpose.