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Symptoms from B12 injections

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
@Martial Well, this all contradicts the 'starting slow' for minimal startup reactions! Does the 'paradoxical' part of the folate deficiency mean that by taking just small amounts of folate you can actually cause a deficiency? Is the only side effect of taking too much folate compared to b12 that it robs me of more b12? Is there any logic in taking a handful of folate for a day or two and then starting back up with the b12, at much higher doses than I'm currently taking?

The Jarrow's B-right does have folic acid in it. The Country Life dibencozide also has folic acid in it. Does this negate some of the b12 I'm absorbing or does it screw other things up? I'm not taking any NAC, glutathione, or whey. I'm also 99% gluten/grain/legume and dairy free, and the only sugars I have are in the forms of minimal fruit, honey, or wine. :) So, besides the additives in these supplements I mostly know exactly what I'm eating and have very... consistent, I guess I'd say, digestion.

I got the NOW Potassium Chloride because of a post that said the potassium gluconate lowers blood pressure, and I already have pretty low blood pressure (100/70 or 80). I don't know if the lightheadedness and dizziness is a part of that, but I definitely didn't want to be fainting all over the place, and wasn't sure by how much the gluconate might lower it further. In the first week I didn't notice any stomach upset from the potassium diluted in water... I think I've been upping my daily intake, though.

Do I need to scrap the Jarrow's B-right and change the Country Life to a different brand? I know I opted for the Jarrow's mb12 even though the Enzymatic Therapy was more highly recommended. I wanted to keep the initial costs down to even see if this protocol was possible.

I do hope one day I'll be an expert at this, like so many of you seem to be. So, thanks for the hand holding in the interim!


I am no expert as to the ways other people use the protocol and all of that either lol, as for starting low to avoid start up symptoms I feel in my experience it will just cause more issues because of induced paradox deficiency then any real benefit. This is of course just me, you don't have to follow my suggestions just stuff I have found more effective in my personal use and conversations with Fred. I do not remember him mentioning to start really slow anywhere before and with my conversations he always insisted against starting on super low dosing, The one thing I do know is if sulfur/sulfite is a problem, as well as having the B6 comt mutation you would need to fix this before starting the protocol, something to help with excess ammonia/sulfurs, also if one is over methylating then vitamin b6 bio available form (P5P) to convert excess methyl groups and Niacin 20mg three times a day for a few days to settle things down, along with molybdenum 300mg daily for excess sulfurs. Choline is another important nutrient to include as well. These were recommendations that Rob Lynch made on his site, apparently having too much methionine; from methylation without proper b vitamin balances can cause issues, most common for people with the b6 comt unless they are using the P5P form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1359575 This discusses issues of too much methionine, it induces parkinsom like symptoms in studies used on rats, likewise too much homocysteine can be an issue and can cause heart failure, therefore it is imperative that one is sure they do things in a safe and professional matter.

FYI in my own case I have chronic lyme plus co infections so ammonia is an issue for me, I found methylation support has really helped me heal faster and to herx far less often and far less severe. I take certain herbs and supplements to help bind the excess ammonia from the lyme, among other bio toxins while continuing methyation support, and lyme treatment. It has become quite a balancing act to get the body into a state of harmony, clearing the infection, de toxing all the neuro toxins, and keeping methylation strong and functional. Once I got everything put together though the results have been amazing!

Toss the country life adenob12 and Jarrows B Right, you don't want any folic acid, it only causes problems you don't want to deal with. For a b complex use Thorne basic B Complex, this is what I use and will cover you well! For Adeno b12 use brandname Anabol Naturals, it comes in 10,000mcg so you can break the pills however you desire for different doses.

Excess folate can deplete the cobalt (B12) a bit, and using too little will push folate out of cells, you need enough folate to get the system going and avoid paradoxical folate deficiency, and enough cobalts to counter balance the rest. Folate and B12 are absorbed together, and dependent on each other for absorption at that. Therefore it makes sense to keep them in ranges that are at least somewhat close to each other. I would either start at the right doses, or drop the methylation completely, focus on clearing some sulfurs if necessary and letting things reset, and then approach when everything is set in the best fashion possible.

Well it sounds like the potassium chloride is working fine so I would stick with it or replace with glycinate if blood pressure is a concern, sounds like the diet is great as well! You are definitely doing everything well to get this all started and hopefully start healing soon enough!

Hope this helps!

p.s. one of the best things you can do for methylation is healing the gut! Your diet already supports this but be sure to clear any possible parasites, tapeworms, yeast, etc.. Correcting any possible gut dysbiosis. If a person has a bad gut even with perfect methylation support it will not work 100%, you want to get all those toxins out from a leaky gut and get balance going again. If you decide to stop methylation at any time this would be great to work on, or during methylation support either way!
 
Messages
12
Ok, maybe I lied about the Potassium Chloride not hurting my stomach. This morning I didn't take any b12's, b complex, or folate, but later had some potassium in water... it's a bit irritating. Not entirely the cause of what I went through yesterday, but probably complicated it.
I looked up the Thorne B complex... on Amazon, it says it contains folic acid??

I don't know if I have any gene mutations, or methylation problems. I do know I had/have low b12 levels and just assumed that was from being vegetarian for a while. I also know I had a horrible reaction to the cyano injections. So I'm trying all of this to raise my b12 levels, but start freaking out when I feel I'm making things worse (causing other deficiencies). And now there's sulfur and ammonia to worry about?? :eek:

@Martial and @ahmo In response to my original post you mentioned that my hives and other histamine issues were probably from the b12 without folate. It's been over a year now, and I still have these issues. Any thoughts? I was thinking the fatigue and dizziness, shortness of breath, etc, were from a still low b12... but could these be in part from the histamine issue? I'm inclined to stick with the Vitamin C, Calcium, and add in some (expensive!!) Neuroprotek, and shelve the b12/folate for another day? I understand that it's probably really difficult to just start eating meat again and expect my b12 levels to go up... or is it? I felt amazing when I started eating meat again (cutting out the grains and sugars probably helped that), but then had a whole different crappy feeling after those shots. I don't understand how, a year later, I still feel the effects?

Here are numbers from my bloodwork:
2/2013 (before cyano injections)
Potassium: 4.0
B12: 343
Folate: 18.3

7/2013 (after 2 cyano injections)
B12: 552
Folate: 18.6

3/2014 (a slight attempt at mb12 supplementing in a multivitamin)
Potassium: 4.0
B12: 546
Folate: >24

I'm sure there's many reasons to not look tooooo closely at numbers, but should I be worried about that drop in b12 after 9 months? And what's up with the rise in folate? Is that the methyl trap... a rise in serum folate while actually being deficient in folate?
 

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
Ok, maybe I lied about the Potassium Chloride not hurting my stomach. This morning I didn't take any b12's, b complex, or folate, but later had some potassium in water... it's a bit irritating. Not entirely the cause of what I went through yesterday, but probably complicated it.
I looked up the Thorne B complex... on Amazon, it says it contains folic acid??

I don't know if I have any gene mutations, or methylation problems. I do know I had/have low b12 levels and just assumed that was from being vegetarian for a while. I also know I had a horrible reaction to the cyano injections. So I'm trying all of this to raise my b12 levels, but start freaking out when I feel I'm making things worse (causing other deficiencies). And now there's sulfur and ammonia to worry about?? :eek:

@Martial and @ahmo In response to my original post you mentioned that my hives and other histamine issues were probably from the b12 without folate. It's been over a year now, and I still have these issues. Any thoughts? I was thinking the fatigue and dizziness, shortness of breath, etc, were from a still low b12... but could these be in part from the histamine issue? I'm inclined to stick with the Vitamin C, Calcium, and add in some (expensive!!) Neuroprotek, and shelve the b12/folate for another day? I understand that it's probably really difficult to just start eating meat again and expect my b12 levels to go up... or is it? I felt amazing when I started eating meat again (cutting out the grains and sugars probably helped that), but then had a whole different crappy feeling after those shots. I don't understand how, a year later, I still feel the effects?

Here are numbers from my bloodwork:
2/2013 (before cyano injections)
Potassium: 4.0
B12: 343
Folate: 18.3

7/2013 (after 2 cyano injections)
B12: 552
Folate: 18.6

3/2014 (a slight attempt at mb12 supplementing in a multivitamin)
Potassium: 4.0
B12: 546
Folate: >24

I'm sure there's many reasons to not look tooooo closely at numbers, but should I be worried about that drop in b12 after 9 months? And what's up with the rise in folate? Is that the methyl trap... a rise in serum folate while actually being deficient in folate?


I would not stop b12 with those numbers, you were severely deficient as of 2013 and would need to really work to bring those levels up to normal again, with supplemented b12 your levels should have gone to the 1999+ range, Folate was also extremely low, sulfur and ammonia was only an issue for me I just made the suggestion in case you had it too, I don't think you have to worry about that though! however for general health purposes you should try and raise your b level to at least a 1000 using methyl b12 lozenges or shots, at the least 5000mcg a day lozenge or 1000mcg bi weekly injections minimal. Like I said before there could be an underlying infection causing your symptoms like Lyme, this would also explain your low b12 levels in the first place, even being a vegetarian you still had very abnormal low levels. Lyme and different hidden pathogens whatever the cause can severly deplete vitamin and mineral levels. Not saying you have lyme but worth looking into for things like Mycoplasma, Bartonella, Borrelia, Enrichlea, mold toxicity, parasites, viral panels etc..

I don't think your histamine issues are related to b12 and folate, just that IF you had built up sulfures and sensitivity to them then it would be good to clear that out first. Clearly there is something at play that is unresolved and ongoing, like I said before definitely do get checked for any underlying pathogens, it would explain a lot!

You can go out and buy quercitin, and leutilin, and the other ingredient of NeuroProtek on your own and try and save money that way if you choose, if histamines are an issue then this is your best bet! Also actually folate is very good to stop allergies, most of the time people get allergies from folate deficiency as well! I used to have allergy type runny noses, and cold type symptoms sporidacally through out the past few years, thinking there was something I was allergic too. Once I got adequate folate levels it all stopped though, it was probably also exaggerated by my deviated septum, small sinus passages, and sinusitis issues but never the less it is much more clear now!

Lol do not freak out there is nothing to worry about! You will be totally fine, I would just continue with b12 and folate both methyl forms since you still have low numbers and it can take months or sometimes a year plus to reverse any nerve issues, and for nerves to turn back on. You can read a lot about this kind of stuff in prenecious anemia forums. Some people actually feel more symptoms, or worse, and more severe symptoms when they finally get levels to raise again, this is due to nerves coming back to life and creating more exaggerated symptoms as a healing response! Stay away from Cyano though! Hydroxy is an okay shot, but Cyano is toxic and binded to Cyanide!

Hope this helps a bit more, don't overthink much you will be perfectly fine! :)
 
Messages
12
lol @Martial! I will try to not freak out. Either it was the folic acid, or not taking enough folate, or both, but I'm feeling much better above 5000 mcg of both methylfolate and mb12. If there is a detailed methylfolate post that I've missed somewhere, I apologize. It wasn't clear to me at first how much to actually take. For now, I have a few remaining questions:

1) when I start adding in the proper adeno b12, do I then need to add more folate to compensate for my total b12? Or is it only mb12 that depends on it?
2) right now I'm splitting up my folate pills between breakfast and lunch, as it seems I only have time for sublinguals in between breakfast/lunch and lunch/dinner. Should I just take all of the folate in the morning? Or actually take them at the time I start the sublinguals? At the beginning I was trying to fit in some mb12 before breakfast, but kind of felt crappy... but this was also when I was starting with less than 1000mcg a day, and only 800mcg of folate.

Unfortunately I might have to find another doctor to start running the tests you're mentioning. This current one, although he did randomly find this b12 deficiency when I thought I was fine, seems to be rather resistant to pursue anything I bring up. I'm getting tired of paying him to ignore me and offer anti-depressants, lol.

Thanks so much for the help, I can't wait to reach the next stages of this and barrage the internet with more questions. :)
 
Messages
12
Well, after two days of upping my methylfolate to 4800mcg and mb12 to 5000mcg... I had great energy that turned into nausea and horrible anxiety. I've since stopped everything and took 50mg of niacin 4 times a day for two days. The nausea is less and I can eat food now, the anxiety is still around but not as bad. Is this overmethylating? Or is it a side effect that I have to stick with and burn through? I've seen so many posts about going slow and some people not being able to handle small doses.
Half of the anxiety is worrying that I'm hurting myself with all of this.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@GoSailor, I can't find what you increased those doses from, that is, how much you increased at a time. Increases of 100-200mcg of folate every day or 2 is probably safe. Sounds like it could be over-methylating. When I get symptoms from raising folate, eg weepy eyes, agitated, hyper, itchy, I immediately pop a B12 1 mg into gum, and it relieves me almost immediately. I've never taken niacin, don't even have any on hand any more.

Histamines: what are you eating? Quite possibly you've got genetic defects leading to histamine intolerance, as I have. I eat nothing on the histamine lists. Linking a few more histamine references. And an excellent vid from mast cell expert Dr. Theoharides re 'Brain Allergy', histamines in brain. cheers, ahmo


http://thelowhistaminechef.com/wondering-why-you-react-to-everything-you-eat/
The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044

Posted by a commenter to above Many Faces of Histamine:
lots of histamine related web-clippings during my research.I’ve shared them out as a public evernote notebook:
https://www.evernote.com/pub/pcguys/histamines

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?attachments/allowed-restricted-foods-pdf.6408/

‪‘Brain Allergy’ and ASD - T. Theoharides, MD, PhD‬
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q

‪Mastocytosis with Theoharis C. Theoharides, MS, PhD, MD, FAA‬
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CplxXGpFeKQ
 
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12
Hi @ahmo. I was at 800mcg methylfolate and started at 1/4 tablet of a 1mg mb12, and had worked up to 3/4 tablet to 1mg tablets a day, before I upped to 5000mcg. I was also taking the B-Right twice a day and a couple of adeno b12's here and there, both brands had folic acid... and I don't know if it's the folic acid or the super low folate that gave me horrible stomach pains last weekend. Martial suggested to up the dosing above 5000mcg to avoid folate deficiency, but I don't know if I'm still doing something wrong or if I just need to be tested before I proceed further.

I thought that the mb12 would be the accelerating factor and not the methylfolate... but I'm obviously totally new at this.

I had kind of shelved my histamine issue until today when I was falling down the research rabbit hole (not good when you're super anxious!) How do you know if you're genetically disposed for histamine intolerance? Or even to know what your histamine levels are, and what they should be? I'm trying to learn as much as I can so that I can have a doctor order the proper tests, whether I switch to one who listens to me or just keep harassing the one I have... I have yet to decide.

My diet is very low in histamines. I have obvious skin reactions that are subdued with h1/h2 blockers, and the vitamin c and calcium supplements seemed to be helping... I was having to take less of the h2 blockers, at least, for the itchiness. But the fatigue and headaches, etc, I was blaming on the b12 deficiency. Maybe I shouldn't be? My histamine issue wasn't apparent until after the cyano b12 shots, so I'm not really sure what came first. (or does anyone know?) Are these separate issues often mis-diagnosed, or does one lead to the other?

Thanks for the videos!
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@GoSailor, You went from 800mcg to 5000mcg folate? not in one go...? If so, that's a big jump. Or do you mean B12? It seems as I re-read this, you must mean B12. I'm sorry, I can't properly attend to this at present, so am a bit unclear. You say above,
Well, this all contradicts the 'starting slow' for minimal startup reactions! Does the 'paradoxical' part of the folate deficiency mean that by taking just small amounts of folate you can actually cause a deficiency? Is the only side effect of taking too much folate compared to b12 that it robs me of more b12? Is there any logic in taking a handful of folate for a day or two and then starting back up with the b12, at much higher doses than I'm currently taking?

You can't just take a huge amount of folate. Maybe you need to drop a bit of B12 until you've increased the folate. Like I say, sorry I can't re-read your earlier posts at the moment. My sense is, without anything to back this up, is that B12 deficiency wouldn't give you acute symptoms, like headaches. Altho Freddd has posted lists of symptoms that document similar/same symptoms to both folate and B12. And I did experience itchiness when I initially started raising B12 w/o doing the same w/ folate. And no, these are not things to just tolerate and push through. When I started out I lost handsfull of hair, thinking it was detox. Not so.

Re histamines, when I did a urine histamine test, it showed nothing significant. Yet I'd been suffereing from near constant rashes for years. I don't put much store in most testing at this point. they've been notoriously unreliable, not only for me. I treat myself by symptoms and self-testing. MAO gene defects predispose to histamine intolerance. I don't know if there afre others that do the same. Dr. Theoharides talks in both the vids re mast cell reactions, how much more common they are than is generally understood. I also don't really understand the relationship betw mast cell and histamine intolerance, whether they always occur together or not. Since I've started treating myself as if I have a mast cell disorder, as well as histamine intolerance, I've essentially stopped the histamine reactions.With the conditions your mother and Gmother have, you could well have MTHFR defect as well, which kmany of us dealing w/ B12/folate have.

I freeze my meat in meal-size portions, only take out what I need. Is your diet "low histamine", as you say, or No histamine? Eg., avocado is histaminic. And citrus fruits are not good for mast cell disorder, I think sweet potatoes might be bad, pumpkin is also not good. Certainly nothing fermented, including yogurt. Check have a list. OK, that's all for me today. I'll check back tomorrow. cheers, ahmo
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
@GoSailor, I can't find what you increased those doses from, that is, how much you increased at a time. Increases of 100-200mcg of folate every day or 2 is probably safe. Sounds like it could be over-methylating. When I get symptoms from raising folate, eg weepy eyes, agitated, hyper, itchy, I immediately pop a B12 1 mg into gum, and it relieves me almost immediately. I've never taken niacin, don't even have any on hand any more.

Histamines: what are you eating? Quite possibly you've got genetic defects leading to histamine intolerance, as I have. I eat nothing on the histamine lists.

Hi @ahmo,

Just to clarify: Were you getting those 'histamine-type' reactions from too much folate when you were eating foods that had histamine in them? And then you later decided to cut out histamine containing foods?

Or if not, then do you think you were reacting to other compounds, like sulfites, benzoates, etc?

Thank you. :)