-
Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.
SAMe Experience
- Thread starter arx
- Start date
I take SAMe. I had a "start-up" response for a while - I felt extra viral/ill, which is a very typical reaction for me (extra swollen glands, etc.). I ended up going down either a half or quarter pill (can't recall now) for about a week, then gradually working up from there. I did notice a difference in energy and small boost to mood, which was nice.
Aside from the initial side effects, I found that when my dose got too high, I started to get a bit of anxiety. But lowering it back down again eliminated that. I take 400mg/day.
I also take TMG, but haven't noticed any particular overall improvements from it. I take it as betaine HCL, primarily for digestive support.
Aside from the initial side effects, I found that when my dose got too high, I started to get a bit of anxiety. But lowering it back down again eliminated that. I take 400mg/day.
I also take TMG, but haven't noticed any particular overall improvements from it. I take it as betaine HCL, primarily for digestive support.
Arx, I found the following in my e-mail box which was re-posted by Lotus not so long ago. The is from our so missed Richvank (May he rest in peace):
Betaine and TMG are the same substance. Betaine HCl has a hydrochloric acid molecule bound to it. Yes, if you take betaine HCl, you will also have the benefit of TMG. However, note that TMG stimulates the alternative BHMT pathway from homocysteine to methionine in the liver and kidneys. TMG will promote production of SAMe, but it can shunt flow away from the methionine synthase enzyme, which is partially blocked in ME/CFS. It's important to get this enzyme going, because it is linked to the folate metabolism, which is needed to make new DNA and RNA, and also because it regulates the entire sulfur metabolism. In Amy Yasko's protocol, she recommends starting with some TMG, and then after the B12 and folate have been built up some, to add DMG, which will inhibit the BHMT reaction by product inhibition, and that will push more of the homocysteine through the methionine synthase reaction. The benefit of doing TMG first is that it can increase the level of SAMe, and that is needed by the methionine synthase reductase reaction, which rescues the cobalamin coenzyme of methionine synthase when it becomes oxidized, thus restoring it to the +1 oxidation state and giving it a methyl group, so that it is a functional methylcobalamin molecule again. I don't know what dosage of betaine HCl will interfere with the methionine synthase reaction. Some people use the Allergy Research Group's dilute HCl solution to augment their stomach acid, and then there is no TMG (betaine) involved. Others use lemon juice (note that it is important to use a drinking straw and to flush the teeth with water afterward, because the citric acid in lemon juice chelates calcium and can damage the enamel on the teeth over time).
TMG stimulates the BHMT (betaine homocysteine methyltransferase) reaction, as it is a reactant for it. This reaction takes place in the liver and kidneys. It is an alternative pathway for converting homocysteine into methionine, and it will help to produce SAMe in those organs.
There are a couple of ways that it might produce symptoms. One is that it will initially lower the flow of homocysteine into the transsulfuration pathway, so the rate of production of glutathione may drop lower initially. So symptoms could be caused by initially making the glutathione depletion somewhat more severe.
Another possible mechanism is that it can also take homocysteine away from the main methionine synthase pathway initially, and that will impact the folate metabolism, since the conversion of methylfolate to tetrahydrofolate will decrease in the liver and kidneys.
A little TMG is often helpful when methylfolate and B12 supplementation are started, because it can help to raise SAMe, needed for recycling methyl B12. After these supplements are well underway and methionine synthase is coming up in activity, the TMG can be stopped, or DMG can be added to counter the BHMT pathway, so as to route more of the homocysteine to the methionine synthase pathway and the transsulfuration pathway.
I've been meaning to re read this "on a good BRIGHT day". Haven't had a lot of those lately. I personally take SamE by N. Made (others have given me intestinal problems) You must take a B-compound with the Sam E. An endo had mentioned Sam E to me years ago stating, " I take this for my Osteoarthritus...it works wonders. I take up to 4 till the pain is manageable than back off". Keeping that in mind for years I began using it when I broke my humorus (not so funny) in 2011. I haven't looked back. It helped healing, helps my OA and the bonus is mood. I take from 1-4 400mg. I was stable on 1-400mg. Recently, I started the SMP and added another. OMGosh, between the SMP and SamE I am doing (knock on wood and THANK GOD) about 25% better. So I highly recommend using it. I find the expense worth it. I am not about to risk my mood and pain for $$$ at this point in my healing. JMHO. Hope Rich's post enlightens the complicated process. If all else fails.....the easy way is 400mg of SamE and a good B compound. I take pure encapsulates B comp Plus. Be HEALTHY and happy. C
Betaine and TMG are the same substance. Betaine HCl has a hydrochloric acid molecule bound to it. Yes, if you take betaine HCl, you will also have the benefit of TMG. However, note that TMG stimulates the alternative BHMT pathway from homocysteine to methionine in the liver and kidneys. TMG will promote production of SAMe, but it can shunt flow away from the methionine synthase enzyme, which is partially blocked in ME/CFS. It's important to get this enzyme going, because it is linked to the folate metabolism, which is needed to make new DNA and RNA, and also because it regulates the entire sulfur metabolism. In Amy Yasko's protocol, she recommends starting with some TMG, and then after the B12 and folate have been built up some, to add DMG, which will inhibit the BHMT reaction by product inhibition, and that will push more of the homocysteine through the methionine synthase reaction. The benefit of doing TMG first is that it can increase the level of SAMe, and that is needed by the methionine synthase reductase reaction, which rescues the cobalamin coenzyme of methionine synthase when it becomes oxidized, thus restoring it to the +1 oxidation state and giving it a methyl group, so that it is a functional methylcobalamin molecule again. I don't know what dosage of betaine HCl will interfere with the methionine synthase reaction. Some people use the Allergy Research Group's dilute HCl solution to augment their stomach acid, and then there is no TMG (betaine) involved. Others use lemon juice (note that it is important to use a drinking straw and to flush the teeth with water afterward, because the citric acid in lemon juice chelates calcium and can damage the enamel on the teeth over time).
TMG stimulates the BHMT (betaine homocysteine methyltransferase) reaction, as it is a reactant for it. This reaction takes place in the liver and kidneys. It is an alternative pathway for converting homocysteine into methionine, and it will help to produce SAMe in those organs.
There are a couple of ways that it might produce symptoms. One is that it will initially lower the flow of homocysteine into the transsulfuration pathway, so the rate of production of glutathione may drop lower initially. So symptoms could be caused by initially making the glutathione depletion somewhat more severe.
Another possible mechanism is that it can also take homocysteine away from the main methionine synthase pathway initially, and that will impact the folate metabolism, since the conversion of methylfolate to tetrahydrofolate will decrease in the liver and kidneys.
A little TMG is often helpful when methylfolate and B12 supplementation are started, because it can help to raise SAMe, needed for recycling methyl B12. After these supplements are well underway and methionine synthase is coming up in activity, the TMG can be stopped, or DMG can be added to counter the BHMT pathway, so as to route more of the homocysteine to the methionine synthase pathway and the transsulfuration pathway.
I've been meaning to re read this "on a good BRIGHT day". Haven't had a lot of those lately. I personally take SamE by N. Made (others have given me intestinal problems) You must take a B-compound with the Sam E. An endo had mentioned Sam E to me years ago stating, " I take this for my Osteoarthritus...it works wonders. I take up to 4 till the pain is manageable than back off". Keeping that in mind for years I began using it when I broke my humorus (not so funny) in 2011. I haven't looked back. It helped healing, helps my OA and the bonus is mood. I take from 1-4 400mg. I was stable on 1-400mg. Recently, I started the SMP and added another. OMGosh, between the SMP and SamE I am doing (knock on wood and THANK GOD) about 25% better. So I highly recommend using it. I find the expense worth it. I am not about to risk my mood and pain for $$$ at this point in my healing. JMHO. Hope Rich's post enlightens the complicated process. If all else fails.....the easy way is 400mg of SamE and a good B compound. I take pure encapsulates B comp Plus. Be HEALTHY and happy. C
Lotus97
Senior Member
- Messages
- 2,041
- Location
- United States
Although Arx has already read it, for anyone else interested there is another thread talking about TMG vs SAMe
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/same-vs-tmg.21518/
Also, someone else was saying that TMG didn't work for them, but taking Choline did. Choline stimulates BHMT just as TMG and SAMe although I'm not sure that's the reason it worked for that particular person.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-the-simplified-methylation-protocol.15385/
I guess it really comes down to trial and error. I've been taking Betaine HCL as a digestive enzyme too so I assumed I didn't need TMG or SAMe, but it seems that TMG isn't always effective for everyone. Phosphatidyl Serine also stimulates BHMT. Both Phosphatidylserine and Choline are also good for cognitive function (ie brain fog).
It's probably obvious to most, but I just wanted to point out that the last paragraph was cph13's experience with SAMe and not a quote from Rich
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/same-vs-tmg.21518/
Also, someone else was saying that TMG didn't work for them, but taking Choline did. Choline stimulates BHMT just as TMG and SAMe although I'm not sure that's the reason it worked for that particular person.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-the-simplified-methylation-protocol.15385/
I guess it really comes down to trial and error. I've been taking Betaine HCL as a digestive enzyme too so I assumed I didn't need TMG or SAMe, but it seems that TMG isn't always effective for everyone. Phosphatidyl Serine also stimulates BHMT. Both Phosphatidylserine and Choline are also good for cognitive function (ie brain fog).
It's probably obvious to most, but I just wanted to point out that the last paragraph was cph13's experience with SAMe and not a quote from Rich
Hey Lotus....thought I made it clear when I said, " I personally take SamE etc etc etc " but thanks for bringing it to everyones attention. I will be more careful in my wording in the future.
U R just wonderful in ressurecting MANY of Richvanks "words of wisdom" just at the right time. I'm bookmarking everything for myself as I find it or when bring things back to the forefront. Just by searching his name we have volumes of info. It is just taxing to find what one needs "at the time we need it" FOG...sure wish it would go to London where it belongs...(No offense to our Brits) Hope U R doin' well.
U R just wonderful in ressurecting MANY of Richvanks "words of wisdom" just at the right time. I'm bookmarking everything for myself as I find it or when bring things back to the forefront. Just by searching his name we have volumes of info. It is just taxing to find what one needs "at the time we need it" FOG...sure wish it would go to London where it belongs...(No offense to our Brits) Hope U R doin' well.
Lotus97
Senior Member
- Messages
- 2,041
- Location
- United States
cph13
lol, that's why I said "it's probably obvious to most", but since all the paragraphs were in italics I thought I'd mentioned it
lol, that's why I said "it's probably obvious to most", but since all the paragraphs were in italics I thought I'd mentioned it