Reduced diversity and altered composition of the gut microbiome in individuals with ME/CFS

[msf]

The fact that some people have reported that fecal mass transplants have relieved their ME symptoms suggests that, at least for those people, the gut flora does not have a protective role.

 

[Bob]

The fact that some people have reported that fecal mass transplants have relieved their ME symptoms suggests that, at least for those people, the gut flora does not have a protective role.

As you imply, any reported improvements are anecdotal. Other anecdotes suggest that some patients have been harmed by probiotics. I've been seriously and permanently (so far) harmed by probiotics. What might benefit one of us might harm another. So, caution is advised.

 

[hopeful2]

I'm finding these studies very interesting after suffering a severe relapse of my ME/CFS last year after taking a couple of rounds of antibiotics earlier in the year. I found this other study having to do with MS very interesting for showing the same lack of diversity in the gut microbes of MS patients. They went into much more detail in the study and talked at one point in the article about lacking the microbes needed to break down phytoestrogens and how this could explain why MS patients are known to have flareups during times of low estrogen like menopause and postpartum. Since both MS and ME/CFS are more common in women, I could see this also pertaining to ME/CFS patients.

Here is a link to the article I'm talking about:
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep28484

 

[bertiedog]

DR. HANSON: No... when we say there is reduced diversity, these are not the common bacteria that you could get by eating yogurt or taking probiotics. Whether taking probiotics might help in other ways, we don't really know. We'd need to do a controlled trial to find that out. But, no, the bacteria that are missing are not ones that you can easily just take by ingesting some sort of food.

I had reduced diversity in my Genova G I Effects test taken earlier in the year and I also have SIBO which is improving with NO PROBIOTICS only a small amount of organic soy KEFIR taken twice daily plus a gluten-free diet since May and dairy-free diet for the past 2 weeks.

I can still feel the bad bacteria having a ball in my gut after eating despite betaine hcl and digestive enzymes but it does feel like there are a lot less of them compared to earlier in the year. Unfortunately I have to be very careful with herbs to kill of pathogenic bacteria because so many of them are vasodilators and cause me horrendous migraines and I cannot stay on Rimfaxamin for ever more!

One person that had severe SIBO for a long term only cured it after Rimfaxamin followed by a change of diet and absolutely no probiotics which he said brought back the SIBO every time he took them.

Pam

 

[SB_1108]

I'm convinced my CFS arose because I was on tetracycline for more than a year as an anti-acne regiment when I was a teenager in the 70's. The antibiotics killed off much of my beneficial bacteria and a massive fungal overgrowth messed up my small intestinal lining. I was rarely ill before, but often got viral symptons after. Didn't know anything about probiotics then.

Yes!!! @EastTenn - Same with me! A year of Tetracycline was the start of my IBS as a teenager. Its always been in the back of my mind that maybe that was the predisposing factor in the development of the disease.

The fact that some people have reported that fecal mass transplants have relieved their ME symptoms suggests that, at least for those people, the gut flora does not have a protective role.

I'm not familiar with any individual accounts of ME symptoms being relieved from FMTs. I'm aware of this study from 2012 but everyone I've read (including myself) that has tried to replicate these findings on themselves hasn't reported any major symptom improvement: http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publications/All Publications/2013 - The GI microbiome and its role in CFS - ACNEM paper.pdf

CFS/ME expert, Dr. De Meirleir, has found temporary positive effects of fecal transplants on CFS/ME patients. But he believes the transplants are not treating the core pathology and that bad flora regrows in patients over time.

Source: Interview with Dr. De Meirleir -

 

[MeSci]

Are there any papers apart from the Mae's paper which give more information about dairy and gluten and their role in leaky gut? Why is it that they get included in leaky gut diets?

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but there is a whole forum on this:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?forums/the-gut-de-meirleir-maes-h2s-leaky-gut.9/

 

[msf]

As you imply, any reported improvements are anecdotal. Other anecdotes suggest that some patients have been harmed by probiotics. I've been seriously and permanently (so far) harmed by probiotics. What might benefit one of us might harm another. So, caution is advised.

I agree - although I would like to know what effect FMTs have on people who can´t tolerate probiotics, I am not willing to try it myself, for a couple of reasons!

Oh, and it wasn´t just anecdotal, there was that study that someone posted the link for above, although that was bacteriotherapy rather than FMT.

 

[Kati]

I agree - although I would like to know what effect FMTs have on people who can´t tolerate probiotics, I am not willing to try it myself, for a couple of reasons!

Oh, and it wasn´t just anecdotal, there was that study that someone posted the link for above, although that was bacteriotherapy rather than FMT.

A patient developped sepsis after FMT. it is not without risk.

 

[msf]

I thought that might be a possibility.

 

[SB_1108]

A patient developped sepsis after FMT. it is not without risk.

Which source are you referring to?

 

[adreno]

Rather than full FMT, I'd use poop pills, as they can be more cautiously dosed. But as others have said, it might not be sufficient to replace the flora. Most probiotics have been intolerable for me.

 

[M Paine]

In regards to the disruption of the microbiome, we know that the adaptive immune system treats foreign molecules with varying degrees of potency.

It would be an interesting study to take some of these species of bacteria, and somehow measure their immunogenicity. It seems logical that those species with a stronger ability to promote an adaptive immune response in serum, would be down regulated by the immune system in the gut.

 

[Forbin]

Yes!!! @EastTenn - Same with me! A year of Tetracycline was the start of my IBS as a teenager. Its always been in the back of my mind that maybe that was the predisposing factor in the development of the disease.]

Same here. Even though I only took tetracycline for about a month, five years before the onset of ME, I do also wonder about it. I rarely saw doctors during that interval, but I was seen a couple of times for stomach pain and unexplained IBS symptoms - the most severe episode of which was six months prior to the onset of ME.

 

[Kati]

Which source are you referring to?

Someone I know. Sorry i cannot be more precise. My point is we have to be careful and aware of possible risks of any intervention.

 

[roller]

the gut microbiome may change with many diseases and maybe region, where you live, temperature and more...?

what about the skin microbiome, the vaginal one, the bladder microbiome, the prostrate?

dont you think, they are different as well?
how would you then 'rate' the differences in the gut microbiome?

its perhaps not really smart to concentrate on the gut.
perhaps, the gut is the new sandbox of the idiots...?

and @those, saying tetracyclines caused their cfs...
didnt you take them due to diseases/infection in the first place?
how can you rule out that this infection hasnt caused cfs ?

 

[roller]

and imo, there may be a direct "link" between the skin microbiome and the gut...

means, that the skin microbiome (which you can easily change by washing) has an immediate effect on the gut (microbiome)... and perhaps other microbiomes...

 

[DiamondEye]

The fact that in Bergen, Norway in 2004 there were thousands of people who became infected with Giardia and many went on to report fatigue after the infection, this finding should be no surprise.

I wonder if these biomarkers could be useful in a disability claim, until a cure or at least treatment or regimen can be found.

 

[kangaSue]

It's obviously no coincidence that the likes of ME/CFS, MS, Idiopathic Gastroparesis, Crohn's Disease and Ulcerative Colitis which can all feature chronic GI dysfunction all have similarities in the finding of an altered composition of the gut microbiome compared to normal controls for the respective conditions.

I was wondering why FMT only works for some people with the same condition, in this study into Crohn's and UC http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1959459/ there was a significant difference in microbiome even within either condition;

[Our results demonstrate that a distinct subpopulation of IBD patients (the IBD-subset) harbor GI microbiotas that differ significantly from study controls and other CD and UC samples (Control-subset).]

 

[bertiedog]

Are there any papers apart from the Mae's paper which give more information about dairy and gluten and their role in leaky gut? Why is it that they get included in leaky gut diets?

This podcast is full of great information regarding gluten and the role of disease. Not sure if actual studies are quoted but I do know Dr P Brien often quotes the latest studies -

https://www.bulletproofexec.com/61-...proofing-your-gut-with-dr-tom-obryan-podcast/

Pam

 

[Biarritz13]

I'm not qualified to give an informed answer on that, just be aware that measurement of lactate levels from exercise usually looks at L-lactate which is a normal product of anaerobic metabolism but D-lactate is a reflection of bacterial overgrowth in the gastro-intestinal tract that's usually encountered in short bowel syndrome.
http://www.biolab.co.uk/docs/dlactate.pdf

You're right, thank you.

In my case, my reaction to certain foods suggests it is the former.

Do you mean that you feel more lactate in your muscles after eating some sort of foods?

As you imply, any reported improvements are anecdotal. Other anecdotes suggest that some patients have been harmed by probiotics. I've been seriously and permanently (so far) harmed by probiotics. What might benefit one of us might harm another. So, caution is advised.

But weren't FMT experiments for ME/CFS anecdotal as well?