No Response to T3 with MTHFR Mutations - Please Explain?

[MAF14]

Taking that much T3 just about guarantees that your SHBG will be high and your FT and E2 will be
very low. That is a well known consequence of T3 use. You are simulating Graves Disease with taking that much t3 medication. Is a real MD giving you 100mcg of T3 a day? What is the reason that all T4 medication is being avoided?

This is my favorite article on T3 and Reverse T3,
http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

By the way, I played with T3 only, it was not a good idea, for me.

I have avoided T4 due to initially high RT3 and below range FT3. I haven't tried T4 in years so what was causing the RT3 issues may possibly be fixed. I have been considering giving T4 a try again for some time now....

 

[MAF14]

This is my favorite article on T3 and Reverse T3,
http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

I haven't finished the article but this excerpt describe my situation for starting T3 only spot on:

"There is a condition called Nonthyroidal Illness Syndrome (NTIS), also known as euthyroid sick syndrome or low T3 syndrome, where reverse T3 is high, T3 is low, and T4 and TSH are normal. This condition is the result of a change in the proportion of the three deiodinase enzymes (D1, D2, D3) that convert the various thyroid hormones. In NTIS, they work together to lower T3 and raise reverse T3, making the patient more hypothyroid. The illness itself causes the derangement in thyroid levels. [15] This is an important concept to understand--the thyroid itself has not gone bad (as in autoimmune disease), but a serious illness has taken control of, and downregulated thyroid levels. These are the patients that can take the high doses of T3 recommended in this protocol without any hyperthyroid symptoms, because their extremely high D3 levels inactivate much of their T3."

I believe it was caused by excessive dieting (long term, low-zero carb and too much exercise).

That is what brought on my Chronic Fatigue, which I am no longer doing so again I am tempted to try T4 or drop all thyroid meds entirely and see if that will correct this issue (although 4 of my mother's siblings are hypothyroid)

 

[MAF14]

Taking that much T3 just about guarantees that your SHBG will be high and your FT and E2 will be
very low. That is a well known consequence of T3 use. You are simulating Graves Disease with taking that much t3 medication. Is a real MD giving you 100mcg of T3 a day? What is the reason that all T4 medication is being avoided?

This is my favorite article on T3 and Reverse T3,
http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

By the way, I played with T3 only, it was not a good idea, for me.

I am going to try adding back in T4 if Cytomel doesn't work...

@xks201
I have brand Cytomel.... Taken sublingual Freddd style (in between gum and lip) 25mcg and didn't notice any physical effect.
I am right now trying 50mcg (just to try and illicit a response) and if nothing there I may try 75mcg tomorrow morning. If 50mcg doesn't have an effect I assume 75mcg won't either but might as well...

 

[UM MAN]

In the past, I have sublingual-ed 7x12.5mcg T3 (total 87.5mcg) each day, for over 6 months. I experienced problems
getting to sleep and a very high heart rate when exercising (so high and for an extended period of time that
I thought that I was having heart attacks). So, for me, I was well aware that the T3 was getting into my cells.
I used Mexican Cynomel.

You feel nothing on brand name Cytomel(not generic) ???
WOW!
The high D3 hypothesis sounds like a fit for you.

 

[MAF14]

In the past, I have sublingual-ed 7x12.5mcg T3 (total 87.5mcg) each day, for over 6 months. I experienced problems
getting to sleep and a very high heart rate when exercising (so high and for an extended period of time that
I thought that I was having heart attacks). So, for me, I was well aware that the T3 was getting into my cells.
I used Mexican Cynomel.

You feel nothing on brand name Cytomel(not generic) ???
WOW!
The high D3 hypothesis sounds like a fit for you.

Yesterday I tried 50mcg Cytomel sublingual (again between gum and lip) and noticed no physical side effects.

I haven't heard of the high D3 hypothesis... Could you explain of link me to somewhere I can follow up?

 

[Lynn_M]

MAF14,
The tiredthyroid RT3 discussion referenced this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083773/. Increases in cytokine IL-6, which causes increased oxidative stress, is concluded to be responsible for both decreases in D1 and D2 mediated T4 to T3 conversion as well as increasing D3 mediated T3 (and T4) inactivation.

 

[MAF14]

MAF14,
The tiredthyroid RT3 discussion referenced this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083773/. Increases in cytokine IL-6, which causes increased oxidative stress, is concluded to be responsible for both decreases in D1 and D2 mediated T4 to T3 conversion as well as increasing D3 mediated T3 (and T4) inactivation.

Interesting, thank you for the info... Still haven't got through the entirety of the study but about 80% of it.

Is there something simple that I'm missing in resolving this issue? From what they say it seems like "possibly" NAC will help but I'm not seeing much more in regards to possible solutions.

 

[Lynn_M]

MAF14,
Here's some more reading, a slightly newer article from 2012, New Insights toward the Acute Non-Thyroidal Illness Syndrome, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3356062/. Sounds like there is much that is still unknown, including a postulated but unknown endogenous thiol factor. I think anything that would reduce oxidative stress and ROS and increase reduced glutathione would be helpful. Mercury in amalgams and poor adrenal function are known to impair thyroid function.

 

[MAF14]

MAF14,
Here's some more reading, a slightly newer article from 2012, New Insights toward the Acute Non-Thyroidal Illness Syndrome, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3356062/. Sounds like there is much that is still unknown, including a postulated but unknown endogenous thiol factor. I think anything that would reduce oxidative stress and ROS and increase reduced glutathione would be helpful. Mercury in amalgams and poor adrenal function are known to impair thyroid function.

Thank you for the info... Again. Adrenal function was a major issue in the past but I would say MUCH less so now.

I also am starting to think that mercury (or even methylation in general) isn't much of an issue for me considering I've really had no side effects from starting with high-maximum range doses of the deadlock quartet.

@xks201 I'm curious as to what your opinion on this/your take on Nonthyroidal illness if you don't mind?

 

[Lynn_M]

MAF14,

What is your body temperature? Have you been tested for thyroid antibodies?

 

[Lynn_M]

MAF14,
You say you're taking the T3 sublingually by placing it between your gum and lip. You may want to try taking it orally instead.

I have been taking Nature-throid under my tongue for over 10 years, and based on my over-range FT3 test results, I know I'm absorbing it when I take it sublingually, because I have no thyroid function otherwise. I think taking it that way ensures that the tablet is fully dissolved and also helps minimize the time before I can eat again. I know many people felt like oral Armour thyroid didn't work for them anymore after Armour changed the formula some years back, because of the microcellulose content. So I'm sympathetic to taking thyroid sublingually and believe that way is effective for dessicated thyroid products.

However, I have read that Synthroid and other levothyroxine products require stomach acid for activation, and therefore must be swallowed to be effective. Since Cytomel and other T3 products are synthetic, perhaps they need to be swallowed as well. If you've had success from taking Cytomel sublingually before, it's possible the formulation has been changed since then. Since sublingual Cytomel doesn't seem to be working for you, I don't see that you have anything to lose by trying a different way.

Edit: You probably already know that certain types of supplements, such as calcium and iron, block thyroid action and should be taken 2-4 hours after thyroid. You might consider whether you're taking any supplements, medications, or foods that might be blocking thyroid.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I know many people felt like oral Armour thyroid didn't work for them anymore after Armour changed the formula some years back, because of the microcellulose content.

Do you have any idea what is a better excipient? I take compounded T4/T3 and the pharmacist uses microcristalline cellulose, to which I am building up an allergy. But I don't know what I can suggest her to use instead. I am ok with rice flour, but I am afraid it would impair hormone absorption.

 

[Lynn_M]

Gondwanaland,
I have read about people who said their pharmacist used Vitamin C powder as an excipient. Lecithin might be another possibility, particularly non-GMO sunflower lecithin. Maybe other powdered nutriceuticals would also work.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Vitamin C powder as an excipient.

I find vit C too stimulant on the thyroid, and too inhibiting on estrogen (Goldilocks )

Lecithin might be another possibility, particularly non-GMO sunflower lecithin.

There is only Soy lecithin here where I live.

Maybe other powdered nutriceuticals would also work.

Thank you so much for the suggestions, I got the idea, hopefully I can come up with something I tolerate

 

[MAF14]

I'm not exactly sure.... I broke my Geratherm thermometer after 2 days and never got a new one. My feet do tend to get cold though ( I believe that is adrenal/thyroid related).

 

[MAF14]

MAF14,
You say you're taking the T3 sublingually by placing it between your gum and lip. You may want to try taking it orally instead.

I have been taking Nature-throid under my tongue for over 10 years, and based on my over-range FT3 test results, I know I'm absorbing it when I take it sublingually, because I have no thyroid function otherwise. I think taking it that way ensures that the tablet is fully dissolved and also helps minimize the time before I can eat again. I know many people felt like oral Armour thyroid didn't work for them anymore after Armour changed the formula some years back, because of the microcellulose content. So I'm sympathetic to taking thyroid sublingually and believe that way is effective for dessicated thyroid products.

However, I have read that Synthroid and other levothyroxine products require stomach acid for activation, and therefore must be swallowed to be effective. Since Cytomel and other T3 products are synthetic, perhaps they need to be swallowed as well. If you've had success from taking Cytomel sublingually before, it's possible the formulation has been changed since then. Since sublingual Cytomel doesn't seem to be working for you, I don't see that you have anything to lose by trying a different way.

Edit: You probably already know that certain types of supplements, such as calcium and iron, block thyroid action and should be taken 2-4 hours after thyroid. You might consider whether you're taking any supplements, medications, or foods that might be blocking thyroid.

I've tried taking it orally for the last few years. I only recently started trying between gum and lip a month or two ago after seeing that's how Freddd recommended taking B vitamins.

And yeah, I do keep thyroid meds away from iron/calcium... I'm still considering giving T4 another go. Just not sure what caused my initial RT3 jump has been fixed so I'm hesitant.

 

[MAF14]

@caledonia do you have any experience with issues like this?

The non-Thyroidal illness seems like a possibility but I'm curious to see if you have any opinions? Thank you for any input!

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia do you have any experience with issues like this?

The non-Thyroidal illness seems like a possibility but I'm curious to see if you have any opinions? Thank you for any input!

Not really. I had autoimmune thyroiditis (high thyroid antibodies) and took Amour Thyroid for many years. After about a year on very low dose methylation treatment my thyroid recovered and I don't need to take a med anymore. My adrenals are about 50% recovered.

I always took the Armour with food (not really recommended, but that's how I had to do it, as I have trouble swallowing pills) and also took my multivitamin at a different time.

Low methylation, mercury, chlorine, fluoride and bromide all negatively affect the thyroid. Thyroid and adrenal function are also linked together (as part of the HPAT axis (hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal, thyroid). Lead and aluminum also negatively affect methylation (and thus adrenal and thyroid function).

There are also thyroid genes which can negatively affect thyroid function.

I did recently meet a guy who was recovered from what he called CFS by using the information in the book Hypothyroidism 2 by Mark Starr. In some people, the thyroid receptors are blocked and you need a huge amount of thyroid hormone to get past it.

I suggest looking at toxic metals as a possibility. I think I still have more metals to come out, and am researching doing the Cutler protocol.

 

[MAF14]

Not really. I had autoimmune thyroiditis (high thyroid antibodies) and took Amour Thyroid for many years. After about a year on very low dose methylation treatment my thyroid recovered and I don't need to take a med anymore. My adrenals are about 50% recovered.

I always took the Armour with food (not really recommended, but that's how I had to do it, as I have trouble swallowing pills) and also took my multivitamin at a different time.

Low methylation, mercury, chlorine, fluoride and bromide all negatively affect the thyroid. Thyroid and adrenal function are also linked together (as part of the HPAT axis (hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal, thyroid). Lead and aluminum also negatively affect methylation (and thus adrenal and thyroid function).

There are also thyroid genes which can negatively affect thyroid function.

I did recently meet a guy who was recovered from what he called CFS by using the information in the book Hypothyroidism 2 by Mark Starr. In some people, the thyroid receptors are blocked and you need a huge amount of thyroid hormone to get past it.

I suggest looking at toxic metals as a possibility. I think I still have more metals to come out, and am researching doing the Cutler protocol.

Glad to see your thyroid condition is better!

I'll look into that book but by a "huge amount" approximately what dose do you mean? 100mcg? 200mcg?

I was going to get tested for toxic metals but I can take pretty large doses of ALA (600mg+) and not notice any negative detox side effects.

I just got a fairly large bonus so I have a good amount of money to spend... If money wasn't a concern what testing would you recommend be done that's out of the ordinary blood work?

Thanks again!

 

[caledonia]

Glad to see your thyroid condition is better!

I'll look into that book but by a "huge amount" approximately what dose do you mean? 100mcg? 200mcg?

I was going to get tested for toxic metals but I can take pretty large doses of ALA (600mg+) and not notice any negative detox side effects.

I just got a fairly large bonus so I have a good amount of money to spend... If money wasn't a concern what testing would you recommend be done that's out of the ordinary blood work?

Thanks again!

Armour thyroid is in mg, not mcg, but something like five times the normal amount. You go by basal temperature (even if labs are reading normal).

If you were going to look at metals, I would suggest getting a hair metals and minerals test and then using Cutler's hair analysis book to interpret it.

Since it looks like you already did 23andme, you can run your raw data through Sterling's App to see what thyroid SNPs you might have.