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New here - methyl trap? Low B12? Please help!!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by jadeoboe, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. jadeoboe


    London, UK
    Hello everyone - this is my first post but I've learnt so much from all the incredibly knowledgeable people on this forum which prompted me to self-treat...I suspect MTHFR but have not been tested, my symptoms started when I began the contraceptive pill 20 years ago and never went away even on stopping 10 years later. That is chronic fatigue etc etc along with spaciness which is horrible, like my whole life is a dream. I am hypothyroid and have been on 3 3/4 grains Armour for 3 months and also have PCOS. My thyroid levels are now fine but I never felt any improvement on Armour.
    I started with Metabolic Maintenance Quatrefolic 10mg 5-MTHF one a day then 2 a day and 2 weeks later felt the world open up and this awareness that I hadn't known for years, I was also taking Jarrow sublingual B12 but not much, only 2,000mcg/day. The response faded away and I then drifted along for the next 6 months with nothing much happening until I suddenly experienced what I presume to be methyl trapping due to lack of B12 - (I've been through low potassium and it wasn't pleasant, so now I take a bucket load every day) - I then increased the Jarrow B12 to 5mg x 2 but it wasn't doing anything so I eventually decided to try Methyl-mate nasal spray. The next day I felt the same awareness that I had felt on the folate so I was quite hopeful but then the day after that I got a really bad cold which is very unlike me as I never catch anything - this was about a month ago and although the cold has gone I feel worse than ever, with increased sweating, worse fatigue and sort of feeling like I'm coming down with something all the time but I'm not.
    What I really want to know is, should I be discontinuing the folate while I try to increase my B12 levels or should I just continue as I am and things will improve on their own? Does B12 generally make people feel worse before they feel better? Do my symptoms still sound like 'methyl trap'? Does anyone know what the heck is going on?

    So grateful to you all for any help....
    Jade x
  2. jadeoboe


    London, UK
    Oh forgot to add, I also have really bad nausea which comes on after taking folate!
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Hi @jadeoboe ;

    It sounds like methyl trapping to me.

    The reasons could be :

    Too much folate. It's rare that someone will need 10-20 mgs. daily for an extended time.

    There is not enough B12 to metabolize the folate. Jarrow brand is now much less effective than in years past. I haven't tried Methyl-mate, maybe it's OK. EnzymaticTherapy is a very effective brand. ( It's a sublingual.)

    B12 is supportive of thyroid function, it may help along with the Armour. Some people have been able to reduce thyroid meds once they improved methylation.
    helen1 likes this.
  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Arizona, USA
    Fatigue, sweating, nausea...sounds like it could be low cortisol to me. Can you get it checked?
    I agree with Crux, that it is a lot of folate you've been taking, but I wouldn't come to the conclusions about you needing more B12 without either tests or SNPs. You don't know your SNPs?
  5. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

    That's a huge amount of folate without enough B12 to keep the folate where it belongs, in the cells. Without enough B12, folate leaks out of the cells. You run the real risk of causing nerve damage this way. I would cut way back on the folate and order some Enzymatic therapy B12.
    Wishing you well.
    Crux likes this.
  6. caledonia


    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    The pill is notorious for depleting folate. "Symptoms never went away after stopping" - assuming this means the folate levels didn't replenish, it does sound like an MTHFR situation.

    If you treat the thyroid but energy doesn't improve, you should also suspect adrenal fatigue. The two often go hand in hand. Some people do ok with adrenal glandulars and such, and others (like me) don't. I've had improvement in both thyroid and adrenals from doing methylation.

    Extremely high dose...should be more like 200mcg methylfolate, along with 200mcg folinic acid.

    Again, a very high dose for starting out. I've made my gains on 50mcg methylfolate.

    Sounds like methyl trapping. The Methyl Mate might have given you a boost, maybe it's more effective than Jarrow, but it would still probably eventually be obliterated by the high folate dose.

    This could actually be a good thing. It could indicate enough improvement in your immune system to mount a response to a cold.

    This could possibly be metal detox (a good thing). When I detox metals,I don't get sweating, but I do get flu-like aches and pains and worse fatigue. If this is the case, you need to slow down the rate of methylation so you aren't so uncomfortable. You'll still be detoxing metals even if you can't feel it.

    Yes, I actually suggest discontinuing everything and letting what I'm calling metal detox symptoms clear out. Then restart at much lower doses that you can tolerate. Then very gradually ramp up the doses as tolerated. If you get the metal detox symptoms again, it's too much too fast. Then you would discontinue, let the symptoms clear out, and restart at a lower dose. This technique is called Start Low and Go Slow.

    Final doses should be somewhere in the range of 200mcg methyfolate, 200mcg folinic acid, and 1000mcg methylcobalamin. There may be other co-factors you will need to get complete healing.

    I've done a starting dose as low as 1mcg on the methylcobalamin, but it doesn't sound like that will be necessary in your case. At a guess, try 100 or 200mcg, then do the folate at a lower dose in proportion to that.

    Good luck.
  7. jadeoboe


    London, UK
    Thank you very much everyone for your kindness in offering your ideas, I will have a think what to do next....
  8. veronica_corningstone


    Dr. Yasko looks at cobalt levels on urinary and hair essential elements tests. I believe the theory is that once you have saturated yourself with enough cobalamins, you'll start dumping cobalt. These tests also measure lithium, which you supposedly need to transport b12.

    You could run a hair test through her for $85.

    I'm up to about 10mg combined of methyl, hydroxy, and adenosyl and many recent tests, including the ones I just mentioned, all point to needing even more. But right now, I'm limited by my voracious potassium needs.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Jade,

    You also need to know that the Jarrow MeCbl is no longer useful. Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion is the only 5 star MeCbl I know of currently and the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex is the most effective AdoCbl I know of currently. These make a BIG difference for most people.

    Also, often on the third day after methylation startup is achieved (2 hours after Metafolin and MeCbl for most folks, with anything else it's a shot in the dark) a person will feel sick with induced potassium deficiency and induced paradoxical folate insufficiency. There is a guide to the symptoms.

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..
    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
    Group 2a - Both
    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
    Group 2b – Either or both
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.
    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.
    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.

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