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Keto debunked.

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by brenda, Nov 9, 2018.

  1. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Shivam Joshi is a nephrologist, internist, and lifestyle medicine physician practicing at an academic medical center in New York City."

    https://vegnews.com/2018/11/8-reaso...n7HzeK_5UaDsR6eOA12H6mz0OyxRRipVBVlp-5Nk-MJ84
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2018
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  2. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    I would hardly call that debunked. Yes ketosis can have negative effects just as veganism can, in the wrong contexts. However, it can also have very beneficial effects in the correct context as many people can attest to.

    I think this thread would be better titled something like, potential keto dangers. This is more realistic and wouldn't put people off your argument.

    Personally I think people shouldn't use ketosis as a cure all solution. They should use it as a tool to achieve certain health goals, and if they do decided to do it long term, read up a lot on all the risks and make sure to get your vitamins and minerals (veg organ meats).

    The inuit example is very good reason for this as it shows that perhaps evolution does not want long term ketosis. I think this maybe because with ketosis you can't get the superoxide burst needed to repair old mitochondria. If this is the case. You could eat like 100g of carbs once a week with fat to help flush out bad mito and repair them.
     
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  3. mattie

    mattie Senior Member

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    Great post @brenda

    There are many more physicians that warn against long term health effects of keto/paleo diet, including:

    T. Colin Campbell, PhD.
    John McDougall, MD.
    Caldwell Esselstyn, MD.
    Neal Barnard, MD.
    Michael Greger, MD.
    Michael Klaper, MD.
    Joel Fuhrman, MD.
    Matt Lederman, MD
    Alona Pulde, MD
    Thomas M. Campbell, MD
    Garth Davis, MD
    Dean Ornish, MD
    Joel Kahn, MD

    Look these people up and learn about health and nutrition.

    Now there will be patients stating how much they improved on Paleo (short term). But there are as many that improve on whole foods plant based diet, without the long term risks associated with a flesh/fat based diet.

    Diet may help but will never cure a real case of ME.
    Having ME is bad enough. Don't risk adding other serious diseases by consuming mostly animal flesh and fat. We are sick enough already.

    Unfortunately the Paleo vs Plant Based debate will continue for a long time.

    Do your own research, the scientific evidence is not hard to be found.
    It will become common knowledge someday.

    Eat a healthy whole foods plant based diet and improve your chances to still be alive when treatment options become available.
     
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  4. ryan31337

    ryan31337 Senior Member

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    "I now present 8 more medical reasons to avoid the keto diet and go vegan instead."

    That said all I needed to know about this commentators bias. Look again and you'll see the same level of criticism and scattering of cherry-picked evidence against the vegan diet, or the high carb Western diet or the...

    It's a shame people can't accept that we don't have identical bodies and identical problems. What works for you may not work for me...
     
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  5. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I am afraid that you will not persuade me to adopt a more neutral position @sb4 due to the damage low carbing did to me personally, ie gall stones, pancreatitis, weight gain and insulin resistence.

    Oh yes there was improvement at first - but that was due to cutting sugar more than anything. Long term it was a disaster.
     
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  6. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    I don't deny this and I believe you when you say keto cause these problems in you. Surely you would agree however that many people have benefited from ketosis also. I think a more neutral stance is far more reasonable and fair when looking at ketosis and other diets. I am glad you are highlighting potential problems but I disagree with the idea that it is always bad/debunked and veganism is better. Although I am very glad you have found veganism to be helpful!
     
  7. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @sb4 l am not pushing veganism and do not consider myself a vegan. I am whole food plant based no oil salt or sugar (and also other restrictions like gluten soy and nghtshade) which could include animal products if desired.

    People who are sick from my personal experience and hearsay, do not do so good and the jury is still out on how long it takes for reasonably healthy people who adopt ketoism to fall prey to the many problems reported.
     
  8. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Ketogenic diet wasn't a solution for me, but for example for children with treatment resistant epilepsy it's a standard treatment in American hospitals. As far as I know, some of those children are kept on the ketogenic diet for several years and they aren't dropping dead or experiencing massive side effects. if it was that dangerous, surely it would never have been approved in the first place.

    Also, at least a couple of members on this forum have reached remission with their disease on the keto diet.
     
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  9. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @JES I guess you did not read that. ever heard of thalidamide and other treatments that had to be taken off the market and supposedly safe?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2018
  10. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    At this time, no one knows what diets are most suitable for ME victims, or which diets are least suitable for them. There probably isn't a general answer to that question, since we are all different.

    For that matter, I don't think there's a general healthy or unhealthy diet for all people. Some people will do better on a vegan diet; some better on a keto diet; some on a high-meat low-fat diet; some on high carb.

    I'm sure someone can produce a similar seeming-logical set of reasons for why any diet is good or bad; probably even for an all-McDonald's diet (would require careful cherrypicking).

    I probably couldn't survive long on a vegan diet; too many vegetable families trigger worse ME symptoms or insomnia. Having to eat only the yucky veggies that are left would probably drive me to suicide. :zippit:
     
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  11. Tally

    Tally Senior Member

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    While there are individual differences we have to be objective and admit that vegetarian diet is a complete and healthy diet (I'm not vegetarian because diet with reasonable amount of meat is just as healthy)

    Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets:

    The position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets is similar: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

    The same just can't be said for keto diet. It is not a complete diet, it lacks nutrients and can be dangerous.

    I do believe that a lot of people on "keto diet" are not strict enough and don't enter actual ketosis which is why they don't have problems. Even the tiniest deviation breaks the ketogenic diet.

    That's because ketogenic diet is lesser of two evils when compared to epileptic seizures. Children on ketogenic diet need a short hospital admission and are under careful observation for any side-effects with support from neurologist, dietician and a registered nurse and regular laboratory testing for deficiencies.

    Such careful procedure is simply not needed for well-planned vegetarian diets, and that's a fact.
     
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  12. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    The keto diet has been the most curative diet for me.

    I was losing my ability to walk. I was staggering.

    I could not tolerate carb dense foods without a worsening of symptoms.

    Now I am steady.

    When I was vegan, I lost muscle tissue, was brain fogged, and utterly bloated. This was back in the eighties, but I read all I could, and ate as much veg. protein as possible.
     
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  13. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Nothing could be further from a 'fact'. I turned vegetarian at age 10 and within short time lost my taste even for eggs and fish. Also no added fats. In retrospect I so whished I would have done it more informed and well planned, because with so much less efforts the disaster that followed could have been completely and easily prevented.

    At age 42 came down with a PAD (due to a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta-bifurcation) and a 60% walking-disability (when worse could walk only 3-400 at once). Conventional medicine had no real options for such, in it's view a non-reversible condition. It took me 6 years on orthomolecular medicine (mega-dose vitamins, minerals, amino-acids and herbals), a high fat diet (~70% of calories of healthy fats), adding eggs and fish back in, to have remission and the walking-disability revoked.

    Which doesn't mean a well-planned vegetarian/vegan diet could not work for someone other. We are all different with different preconditions, genetics, life-style factors, bio-chemical individuality.
     
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  14. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    The vegan diet, is the hardest to get right, hence loads of unhealthy vegans. It has to be whole foods, no oil salt or sugar. Most vegans eat too much fat.
     
  15. Tally

    Tally Senior Member

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    You say yourself you didn't plan it well so how does that contradict my "well-planned diet is safe and healthy"?

    Look, people eat horrible diets of any kind. Diabetes, heart-attacks....can all be consequences of bad diets.

    But that's not the point, the point is, can a well-planned diet be nutritionally adequate and healthy? The answer is: vegan - yes, vegetarian - yes, low-meat eating diet - yes, keto - no.

    Of course someone with IBS will have a hard time on a vegan diet. Of course if keto helps someone's epilepsy or ME then the benefits outweigh the negatives, but they should still keep careful watch over their nutrient levels. Educated vegans and vegetarians don't need to do that.
     
  16. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Sorry I misunderstood due to your wording.

    Though when turning vegetarian at 10 I still certainly would have needed a dietician and regular laboratory testing for it being possible to become well-planned.
     
  17. Tally

    Tally Senior Member

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    Any 10 year-old needs adult guidance and can't be left to their own devices when it comes to food choices.

    I am not aware of any research showing that vegetarians, at any age, require laboratory testing that meat-eaters don't.
     
  18. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Quite honestly, I really dislike it when people write in such condescending and denigrating terms such as these. All the worse when written by a medical doctor who purports to know a lot about proper nutrition. She should know by now that individual nutrition, just like health issues of all kinds, are often exasperatingly complex.

    To write so definitively (arrogantly?) while demonstrating a clear bias toward her own favorite model of eating does not lend credence to her argument(s). Sadly, though a number of her points are probably valid, I distrust her conclusions because of the way she presents her arguments. This is what we expect from politicans, not MDs.
    Totally agree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  19. rel8ted

    rel8ted Senior Member

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    The one thing that I heard from doctors that actually was valuable was "eat adequate protein." I never could do that on a carb "heavy" diet (what I see most people consuming). I have Celiac and have sensitivity to most grains. After eliminating all grains, my gut feels amazing. I actually get hungry and have regained a lot of time that used to be spent sprinting (or wishing I could run) for the nearest bathroom. The Keto way of eating also made me realize that not eating "low fat" leaves me feeling satisfied long before my gut feels like it will bust. I certainly think it has its place for certain conditions, as do some eating plans I cannot follow.

    I really don't see what the frenzy to debunk Keto is. There have been many articles that attempt to debunk it. Like many other things, it has its place for the right people at the right time. I wouldn't be telling a diabetic not to eat a sugar free diet because of the dangers of artificial sweeteners; it would be the lesser of two evils for that situation. Keto is the lesser of two evils for me.
     
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  20. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Ketosis is a normal metabolic state. How much any one person wants to rely on it for fuel is a personal choice.

    Given that it makes me feel as close to normal as I've felt in a decade, so I'm happy to be in ketosis most of the time. I follow a plan based on the Wahls diet that has me eating up to 9 cups of veggies a day, mostly of the green and leafy variety. I don't know many vegetarians who can say the same.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2018
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