Keto debunked.

Crux

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I really don't see what the frenzy to debunk Keto is.
I don't either. It's been around for almost 100 years.
Like any diet, keto can be varied, but needs to be customized.
It's restrictive yes, but the foods can be delicious and satisfying. Protein + Fat = satiation.

Micronutrients need special attention with keto, since we've been getting them from some carb dense foods. Grains aren't really that nutrient dense, but potatoes are.

My gut also improved with keto, but even the fibers in nuts and cocoa will cause trouble.( sibo, infections in mouth, sinus, etc.) Nuts are nutrient dense, so it's hard for me to give them up.

Keto has been a part of my process, but I have to augment it. (supplements)

Keto isn't for everyone, for sure, but people needn't feel threatened by it.
 

Wayne

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I really don't see what the frenzy to debunk Keto is. There have been many articles that attempt to debunk it. Like many other things, it has its place for the right people at the right time.
And for some people--like myself--a "modified" this or that diet is usually better than being overly rigid and strictly following guidlines that may not be the best for us. I'm currently on a diet plan I would best describe as "modified intermittent fasting, based on ketogenic principles". How's that for giving me maximum flexiblity? :angel:
 

Diwi9

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I agree with @rel8ted. I was an ethical vegan for 10 years and a subscriber to VegNews during that time, and first got sick while vegan. Carbs make me worse now (gained 30 lbs. during my relapse in 2016) and I have many food intolerances in that category. Keto is not a fun diet, nor a diet useful to everyone, but it increases my energy, curbs my brain fog, and keeps my SIBO at bay...and I've lost 25 lbs. For now, I'm stuck with it...but I still stick as many vegetables in that I can get in. I don't eat as much protein as some people assume one does on the keto diet, because I don't have much appetite.
 

brenda

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Thanks for the rebuke and it stung coming from Wayne, but yes I am emotionally involved in this due to the amount of damage it did, and which I am still working hard to overcome.

What annoys me is that there are no warnings that his diet can be harmful. I could have lost my life with the pancreatitis and if I had had to be operated on with the gall staones (I just had to put up with severe pain) as it will probably kill me to have anesthesia.

It is being toted as the answer to everything yet the science does not back it. So I will give the warning whenever I can.
 

Crux

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As I recall, Brenda, you've had blood markers for gallbladder trouble for some years. I wonder if there may have been a series of causes....
 

ryan31337

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Hi @brenda,

I'd hope that all of us would support you in providing a balanced assessment of the keto diet, there's certainly no hard feelings from me or desire to dismiss your warnings entirely.

We get irked when people, as @Wayne described, lecture authoritatively and cherry pick science for their own agenda - especially when they are medical professionals or academics that should know better. This applies to anyone suggesting that the keto diet is a cure-all and entirely safe/appropriate for everyone too.

The only honest thing people can say is "it may or may not work for you" and "you may or may not experience side effects", as per any other medical intervention.

Ryan
 

pamojja

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, but yes I am emotionally involved in this due to the amount of damage it did, and which I am still working hard to overcome.
Totally understood. But others who were harmed, like me from low fat and plants only, and then even found remission from the opposite diet and a condition which should have killed me, are all just as well with their whole being involved.

Guess we all only ask you for is to do it fair. Then your warnings will be well received.


I'm of the general opinion that one should always remain skeptic on any internet claims, research it oneself long enough to know all potential risk and benefits, so that one indeed can take responsibility of any outcome by any course of action chosen oneself. Blaming never been warned means, one never even searched for opposing opinions. They are always there.
 

Crux

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How long did it take for you to begin seeing changes?
As I recall, it took as much as 2 months to see changes. I'm not sure it was keto flu, I was up on electrolytes.
I suspect it may have been hypoglycemia. Sometimes I would feel out of breath, weak.
At some point, I began to eat more often to stave symptoms.

Healthy people may have an easier adaptation than those of us with an illness, especially ME/CFS.
 

Crux

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I'm bringing this up because of my interest in finding the science behind causes of illnesses. Of course it's complicated, and research can have flaws.

The ketogenic diet may not necessarily be the cause of liver and gallbladder issues. This recent article points more to insulin resistance, and recommends a lower carb diet for it. They recommend a mediterranean diet, much easier to follow.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6173119/

Here's an abstract of an article that recommends a high fat diet along with ursodeoxycholic acid for gallstone prevention during weight loss.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24321208
 

Wayne

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I'd hope that all of us would support you in providing a balanced assessment of the keto diet, there's certainly no hard feelings from me or desire to dismiss your warnings entirely.
Hi @ryan31337,

Thanks for mentioning this, and I second it. I was going to write something very similarly to Brenda, but your words summed up my own thoughts and feelings very well. -- Thanks @brenda for sharing your concerns! :)
 

Wayne

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Thanks for the rebuke and it stung coming from Wayne, but yes I am emotionally involved in this due to the amount of damage it did, and which I am still working hard to overcome.
Hi @brenda,

I just saw this, and feel mortified by what may have been a lack of clarity on my part. To be clear, I was rebuking the author of the article, not you. I did use the word "she" in my earlier post, but that was referring to the author, whose unusual name was a bit confusing for me. So I really don't know whether it was a she or a he.

I'm so sorry to hear about the great difficulties you experienced as a result of following the ketogenic diet. It makes me appreciate all the more the efforts you made to share your concerns. -- My sincerest apologies if I inadvertently made you feel I was critiquing you instead of the author of the article. :hug:
 
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Great post @brenda

There are many more physicians that warn against long term health effects of keto/paleo diet, including:

T. Colin Campbell, PhD.

Speaking of things that have been "debunked" - T. Colin Campbell, the first person on your list (and the only one whose name I have memorized), is the author of the thoroughly debunked China Study. That study is garbage. It has been demonstrated conclusively that the statistics were done incorrectly - either due to ineptitude or fraud. Campbell went into that study with a huge bias.

Also, the study contains a huge confound: all the people eating meat were also eating grains. Grains reduce to sugar in the gut, and sugar is a cheap form of energy that your body will burn off before it burns fat. So if you eat grains (sugar) AND meat (fat), your body burns the sugar as energy and stores the fat for later, either on your hips or in your arteries. Which means that yes, eating meat might be slightly bad for your health, IF YOU ARE ALSO EATING SUGAR/GRAINS. If you cut out grains and eat the way our paleolithic ancestors ate successfully for millions of years before modern grain-based agriculture stunted our growth and caused our teeth to rot out of our heads and our jaw-lines to recede, etc, all the problems associated with eating meat disappear. The China Study does not test for this.

Furthermore, Campbell's unfortunately extremely popular book, which is based on the China study (and from which most internet-based vegan health claims are drawn) draws conclusions that are not even supported by the debunked study itself.

The truth is that veganism results in chronic nutrient deficiencies that lead to disease. Every single person I know who is or was vegan for more than about 7 or 8 years (and I know several, including myself) is now suffering with a debilitating life-changing illness. By contrast, every person I know who has tried paleo or keto (including myself for the past 4 years now) has dropped down to their ideal weight and stayed there, seen significant gains in energy, mental clarity, has had health conditions clear up, skin looks better, etc etc etc. Obviously this is too new for there to be any real long-term research, but personally I'd bet the house on keto/paleo.

Dr. Myhill cites veganism as a risk factor for CFS/ME on her website. And I guarantee if we could accurately poll the people on PR, we'd find that the number of vegans and former vegans with CFS/ME far outstrips the number of vegans in the average non-ME population.

If you're going to do research, don't just read the vegan propaganda, most of which is based on faulty science. Read all of it and come to your own conclusions. In my personal experience and opinion, having read both sides, and as someone who is still a proponent of animal liberation and environmentalism, veganism is damaging to human health.
 
How long did it take for you to begin seeing changes?

I'm actually doing my own personalized version of Dr. Myhill's Stone Age Diet, based on my gut issues and body. It is similar to but not exactly Paleo or Keto. So I may not be the most qualified person to answer this. But...

my experience was that it took me about maybe 4-6 weeks to start seeing improvements.

The first few weeks were rough, as my body got over the sugar addiction. I had intense cravings and felt extra sick. But then my brain fog lifted quite a bit, my energy stopped crashing so much, and my sore throats went away. More improvements followed over the years as I slowly discovered that I have problems with casein, gluten, nightshades, FODMAPs, etc.

I will never go back to eating sugar, and I absolutely will never be vegan again.
 

brenda

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There are many extremely unhealthy vegans but they are not doing the whole food plant based no oil sugar or salt. It is not easy to do a vegan diet apart from this but most of the deficiencies can be covered. I grant that a healthy meat based diet can be healthy for some people but l doubt it for sick people and it might be okay for a while but long term you get the increased cancer and cardiovascular risks.

There have been plenty of other long term studies apart from the China one that this diet is based on and l do not believe the debunkers of the China study. it

It is a myth that our ancestors would be able to eat meat often. Fruit has been the staple since the beginning.
 

JES

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There are many extremely unhealthy vegans but they are not doing the whole food plant based no oil sugar or salt. It is not easy to do a vegan diet apart from this but most of the deficiencies can be covered. I grant that a healthy meat based diet can be healthy for some people but l doubt it for sick people and it might be okay for a while but long term you get the increased cancer and cardiovascular risks.

There have been plenty of other long term studies apart from the China one that this diet is based on and l do not believe the debunkers of the China study. it

It is a myth that our ancestors would be able to eat meat often. Fruit has been the staple since the beginning.
There is an increased cancer risk from processed meat and probably a small one from read meat (pretty sure it doesn't concern other type of meats). So you could always avoid processed and red meat if this is the concern. But anyway, for most of people with ME/CFS, the increased cancer risk is an insignificant concern. I could compare it with someone having a severe autoimmune disease and forced to eat immune suppressants, which generally increase cancer risk. Both keto and immune suppressing medications are nevertheless good treatment options if they reduce the main disease.

Regarding China and other studies, all of these studies are observational, they are far from the evidence that controlled trials provide. I would rate them on the same or less degree of evidence as PACE trial. There is simply no way we can draw any conclusions with a high level of certainty from observational studies.