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homozygous for MTHFR A1298C - heterozygous for MTHFR C677T

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
I should add to my last post, I'm still willing to give any idea a try, especially when it seems harmless enough.

Today took my first dose of 250 mcg methylfolate and 350 mcg methyl b12

I'll give it a month of gradual dose increases.

If that doesn't work I'm thinking next stop is NO increase using l arginine.

If I give every theory on curing this wretched disease more than a month I'll be experimenting with supplements into an old folks home.

Unless one of the theories ends up on tv as having actually cured some people.

So far none has.
 

Sea

Senior Member
Messages
1,286
Location
NSW Australia
One thing I'm curious about though about all this is, if my my body isn't converting folate into forms required for various body functions, shouldn't I have anemia?
Have you had the standard blood tests where they report mean cell volume (MCV) and mean cell haemoglobin (MCH)? If these are raised it can indicate folate and/or B12 deficiency. My MCV was high and returned to normal over 6 months of supplementing B12 and folate even though my blood tests didn't directly show a deficiency of these.

I should add to my last post, I'm still willing to give any idea a try, especially when it seems harmless enough.
Sorry to sidetrack your thread. Yes it's worth a try and the jury is still out on whether it is better to supplement folic acid or methylfolate. I used methylfolate. I figured if I was deficient even though my blood levels of folic acid were fine then perhaps I wasn't converting it well.

My point was not to dismiss supplementing or to argue for folic acid. I just don't like to see claims made as though there is evidence when there isn't.
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
Sorry to sidetrack your thread. Yes it's worth a try and the jury is still out on whether it is better to supplement folic acid or methylfolate. I used methylfolate. I figured if I was deficient even though my blood levels of folic acid were fine then perhaps I wasn't converting it well.

My point was not to dismiss supplementing or to argue for folic acid. I just don't like to see claims made as though there is evidence when there isn't.

I hear you. I figure no harm should come to me if I try methyl(folate/B12) for a month even if I'm not deficient.

MCV and MCH are parts of a standard yearly blood test aren't they? The ones I have copies of at home from the past few years show mine as normal, and my doctor would have mentioned something if mine were high this year.
 

Sea

Senior Member
Messages
1,286
Location
NSW Australia
Yes, in Australia MCV and MCH are part of the standard blood test called a blood count, but I think the test may be called something different in other countries.
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
Folks,

My main reason for so much interest on this subject is it looks like my 2.5 yr old might be on the autism spectrum.

I have this genetic mutation, mentioned above.

And my ex wife had a cousin with a kid who had spina bifida.

And I've been reading about possible links between low cerebral folate and autism.

So I'm using myself as a guinea pig. If something happens with this experiment it'll give me clues as to how I can help my son.

Can you give kids methylfolate and methyl b12? Has anyone here done that?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia

The assumption of the study is that high folate/B12 in blood means high levels in cells. This is not necessarily the case.

There is also the possibility that high levels in blood mean that the vitamins are not being taken up into cells - there is a functional shortage.

They would need to conduct further tests to look at functional levels of the vitamins - viz MMA, homocysteine and Figlu.

Here is a review which talks about the phenomenon for B12. I do have one somewhere which considers similar questions with folate but just can't find it at the moment.

Don't forget also that for people taking folic acid who happen to be very slow metabolisers, accumulating folic acid will show up in blood while in the cell it will slow down a number of reactions in the folate cycle, contributing to functional deficit.
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
Don't forget also that for people taking folic acid who happen to be very slow metabolisers, accumulating folic acid will show up in blood while in the cell it will slow down a number of reactions in the folate cycle, contributing to functional deficit.

So you mean it's likely these expecting mothers were undermethylators? (If undermethylator given my scant knowledge of this stuff means is "slow to convert folate into methylfolate" so the unconverted folate remains in the blood?)
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
So you mean it's likely these expecting mothers were undermethylators? (If undermethylator given my scant knowledge of this stuff means is "slow to convert folate into methylfolate" so the unconverted folate remains in the blood?)

I wouldn't use the term undermethylation. This concept, along with the converse overmethylation, has wide claims made for it with not much evidence. Since many of the symptoms supposedly attributable to the two conditions overlap, I am skeptical about the notions behind the claims.

High levels of substances in the blood may mean they are being supplied in excess but they may also mean that there is not much call for them in the cell; the metabolic pathways using them are proceeding slowly. Conversely low levels may mean poor supply, but may also mean excessive demand. The pathways using them in the cell are proceeding at a high rate.

So blood levels alone are not sufficient to work out which possibility is actually occurring.

I was pointing out that there is evidence for both B12 and folate that high levels in blood can mean that the vitamins are not being taken up into the cell - ie they are not being transported or the pathways using them are proceeding slowly. The high levels in blood are flagging that there is actually a functional deficit of the vitamins in the cell.

The authors of the paper you linked didn't consider this possibility at all but it is quite possible that the group showing a higher incidence of autism had a functional deficit, not an excess.

In the case of folic acid supplements, this could be contributing to the problem. Here is one of the papers I couldn't find yesterday. The studies described show that the enzyme DHFR is 1,300 times as slow to process folic acid as it is to process its natural substrate DHF. Furthermore, there is a 5 fold natural variability in DHFR activity among healthy individuals.

So everyone has limited capacity to process folic acid and there is plenty of evidence for widespread accumulation of unmetabolised folic acid in blood among people consuming modest levels of supplements or just from eating fortified foods.

As the paper shows, folic acid inhibits the DHFR enzyme, so the people with the lowest natural levels of enzyme activity may accumulate considerable amounts. This has a cascading effect. High levels in the cell inhibit uptake from the blood so blood levels rise (ie those with the highest blood levels could be those with the slowest ability to process folic acid). Inside the cell, low DHFR activity means that DHF accumulates and this in turn inhibits a number of enzymes in the folate cycle.

So the whole folate cycle slows down, not just the conversion of 5,10 methylene THF to methylfolate (the MTHFR reaction). For people who already have slowed enzymes, such as by the SNPs you are concerned about in this thread, folic acid could exacerbate their problems.