Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Homebrew Acetate and the Kreb's Cycle

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by debored13, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I was advised by someone that has lactic acid problems from cancer (but not CFS), to try making my own sodium or potassium acetate by mixing vinegar and baking soda (or potassium bicarbonate), which forms sodium acetate or potassium acetate, and then carbonic acid (which I think just is released as gas).

    The idea is that the acid can feed the kreb's cycle, the acetylcoa needing acetate to be produced? I know that b5 is also needed for this step.
    If we have a problem with pyruvate dehydrogenase,which drives pyruvate oxidation to feed the krebs cycle, i wonder if this might help. It's kind of a long shot, but my question now is
    1) Most importantly, is it safe, and at what doses???


    Vinegar is widely considered safe at reasonable doses, as a food product, but i wonder if acetate salts are different

    2) is it plausible

    3) do any of you have experience with it
     
  2. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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  3. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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  4. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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  5. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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  6. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    "Oral LD50 (rat): 3,530 mg/kg; Oral LD50 (mouse): 6,891 mg/kg;"
     
  7. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    "Oral acetate supplementation enhances glycogen synthesis in some mammals. However, while acetate is a significant energy source for skeletal muscle at rest in horses, its effects on glycogen resynthesis are unknown. We hypothesized that administration of an oral sodium acetate-acetic acid solution with a typical grain and hay meal after glycogen-depleting exercise would result in a rapid appearance of acetate in blood with rapid uptake by skeletal muscle. It was further hypothesized that acetate taken up by muscle would be converted to acetyl CoA (and acetylcarnitine), which would be metabolized to CO2 and water via the tricarboxylic acid cycle, generating ATP within the mitochondria and thereby allowing glucose taken up by muscle to be preferentially incorporated into glycogen. Gluteus medius biopsies and jugular venous blood were sampled from nine exercise-conditioned horses on two separate occasions, at rest and for 24 h following a competition exercise test (CET) designed to simulate the speed and endurance test of a 3 day event. After the CETs, horses were allowed water ad libitum and either 8 l of a hypertonic sodium acetate-acetic acid solution via nasogastric gavage followed by a typical hay-grain meal (acetate treatment) or a hay-grain meal alone (control treatment). The CET significantly decreased muscle glycogen concentration by 21 and 17% in the acetate and control treatments, respectively. Acetate supplementation resulted in a rapid and sustained increase in plasma [acetate]. Skeletal muscle [acetyl CoA] and [acetylcarnitine] were increased at 4 h of recovery in the acetate treatment, suggesting substantial tissue extraction of the supplemented acetate. Acetate supplementation also resulted in an enhanced rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis during the initial 4 h of the recovery period compared with the control treatment; however, by 24 h of recovery there was no difference in glycogen replenishment between trials. It is concluded that oral acetate could be an alternative energy source in the horse."

    Ok but I can't find human trials :(
     
  8. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    I have used white vinegar with pantothenic acid and many different amino acids reacted with potassium bicarbonate, magnesium carbonate and small amounts of sodium bicarbonate with no noticeable benefit. I was trying to improve acetylcholine production. I have not used acetic acid for quite a while. I do also use Acetyl L Carnitine.

    Potassium can be dangerous in high doses but I have used 3 grams at a time without any problems when reacted/complexed with amino acids etc which tends to slow it's release.

    I will add that the recommended things such as D-ribose has never benefited me and therefore it is difficult to say whether your idea will help anyone else. Therefore do not take my lack of any benefit as a discouragement.
     
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  9. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Here is a conversion chart.......:)

    upload_2018-9-25_20-42-24.jpeg
     
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  10. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    since i don't have calc on hand... doing quick math and rounding down to make it more in favor of caution/a low number we have about 500mg/kg for humans. 6000/12

    Multiply that by about 70 kilograms... 45,000 mg? or 45 g? someone double-check my brain-fog-addled quick math
     
  11. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    With growing evidence starting to point to everything being gut driven, if it's just all about getting an elevation in acetate, couldn't it be as simple as just taking a bifidobacterium probiotic?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43522
     
  12. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I don't know much about probiotics but I do know that probably the strain matters. getting the ones that produce lactate would be counterproductive with cfs
     
  13. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    oh and cypro
     
  14. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    So I asked ray about this and he said "Its similarity to fat suggests that it could lead to under-production of CO2, leading to other problems"

    And I thought "what??"

    Then I looked for sodium acetate in his articles, he doesn't mention it directly but cites this in an article about salt: Effects of infused sodium acetate, sodium lactate, and sodium beta-hydroxybutyrate on energy expenditure and substrate oxidation rates in lean humans. - PubMed - NCBI

    "Infusion of sodium acetate in lean humans results in a decrease in respiratory exchange ratio, which may be advantageous in patients with respiratory failure. However, this potential decrease in respiratory work was observed to be offset by significant thermogenesis. The metabolic effects of sodium acetate, sodium lactate, and sodium beta-hydroxybutyrate, infused at a rate of 20 mumol.kg-1.min-1 for 3 h, was monitored in six healthy human volunteers. Respiratory exchange ratio decreased from 0.85 +/- 0.02 at baseline to 0.75 +/- 0.02, 0.75 +/- 0.02, and 0.80 +/- 0.02, after acetate, lactate, or beta-hydroxybutyrate, respectively (P < 0.05 for each). Acetate produced a larger thermic effect (22.7% of energy infused) than did lactate (16.3%) or beta-hydroxybutyrate (13.6%). Thus, sodium salts of organic acids may potentially decrease the respiratory requirements by decreasing the respiratory exchange ratio. However, this effect is partially offset by the thermic effect of these substrates. The maximal doses and safety of these anions during larger infusion periods remain to be determined."

    Okay, so thermogenesis, that's good, right? But apparently it decreases the C02/O2 ratio. Which also happens with ketosis or eating more fats.

    Respiratory exchange ratio - Wikipedia

    With only fats, the ratio would be about .7, whereas normally it's about .8. In this paper, it started at .85 and decreased to .75

    But then this also says that in anaerobic exercise, the respiratory ratio raises a lot, to above 1. Well, that makes it sound like increased CO2 is stressful. But I would bet that it's also a compensatory mechanism for the stress of anaerobic metabolism, to increase oxygenation via the Bohr effect. So maybe we want a higher respiratory ratio?


    But at the same time, thermogenesis--that seems good. As well as the fact that it would feed the kreb's cycle via providing an alternate source for acetylcoA, whereas people with CFS have problems with pyruvate oxidation. Hmm. It seems possibly worth a try. It seems like it could be similar to keto, maybe not ideal long term, but could provide temporary relief by providing an alternate fuel source for people who are having trouble with normal oxidative metabolism.


    So I'm not sure I'm going to try this, but any of you who are at all interested in ketosis might want to. And I might end up trying it. Seems pretty safe, all things considered.

    @sb4 @Learner1
     
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  15. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    @debored13 Yeah, it is interesting, may come back to it at some point but I have a lot of things on the go at the moment. One thing I will say is that I am skeptical on ray's views on fats/carbs. I think ketogenesis and fat burning in general can be very beneficial in more context than it seems peat does.

    There is merit to the randle cycle (???) idea of chosing one substrate to burn and sticking with it, ie having both relatively high levels of fats and glucose in the blood at the same time is probably not a good idea in some contexts. I wouldn't worry too much about it though as CFS throws a lot of these ideas out of the window. If it feels like it's working keep with it and keep a daily log so that you can see if it causes more or less benefit in the medium term.
     
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  16. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Yeah I appreciate heterogeneous views on diet, and originally i was gonna try keto, but I also know people who were sick who got worse on it. And I have trouble with digestion to start with so it would be a very hard transition anyway.

    Still, this acetate thing might be kind of like the benefits of keto.

    I think the conversation around thermogenesis and the respiratory exchange rate could be interesting, if anyone with more knowledge than I could chime in.
     
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  17. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Regardless of the carbs debate, @sb4 I have gotten some consistent benefit, not curative, but palliative, with bag breathing, so I assume that increasing rather than decreasing the respiratory rate might be good in my case, it's not all theory.
     
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  18. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Like whenever my bp is on the high side, I can consistently lower the diastolic by 20 points or 10 at the least just by bag breathing for a minute.

    Has anybody else experienced this?
     
  19. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    As for diet, it seems that we are on a wide range of diets. Having a digestive system.that functions well and a well-adjusted microbiome is a given.

    From everything I've been taught and read, a high carbohydrate diet is not a good idea, and a high carb/high fat diet is worse. ME to can have benefits, but, for many of us who are burning aminos for fuel as Fluge and Mella found, going keto doesn't provide enough amino acids.

    Which leaves a lower carb diet.

    My BP runs high due to antibodies, and the only thing rhats made a difference is a beta blocker. As we tend to be hypoxic, I'm not sure about the wisdom of increasing one's ratio of CO2.
     
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  20. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    @debored13 Yeah I have benefited from Buteyko breathing as well. I don't actively do it, I have just learned to stop breathing so deep. I used to feel the need to breath excessively after eating, but since training myself not to, I do not have to do it anymore. Also helps that I am significantly better now than last year.

    I think the excessive breathing is caused by dysautonomia causing lack of oxygen in tissues, but when you breath heavier (dysautonomia) you make the problem worse.

    As for the carbs, I have tried extremely high carb, and zero carb, ketosis, carbosis, high protein, and tons of other stuff. There are pros and cons to each but if I where you I would at least give keto a try, especially if you think PDH is an issue. Or at least add it to your list to try at a later date.

    Currently I am at like 150g Carb 100g protein rest fat. I have had some quite significant success recently with methylation, particularly in regards to my handling of carbs. Before I would get real bad heart pounding, now it is very minor. This is massive for me as heart pounding is my worst symptom. I still have some tinkering to do however as it has not been smooth sailing.
     

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