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Help! I can't take folate without terrible over-methylation symptoms and need it for pre-pregnancy

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I find it interesting that most of the people who are so insistent that everything be proven or have evidence to back it up are also some of the people who very quickly use these types of non-evidenced-based arguments against things when it's convenient for them.

I stand by my contention that a lack of evidence means precisely that and nothing more. We can't logically infer harm (or benefit) from something just because there is no evidence regarding it. Especially when it comes to something like methylation and its role in helping ME/CFS sufferers. There are some who have not done well on it, and others who have.

I think if you look at my post the comment about pseudoscience came after I had given clear physiological reasons why the suggestion was pseudoscience and irrelevant.

Of course a lack of evidence just means a lack of evidence but we do not go around recommending medical care unless we have some evidence. I did not infer any harm as far as I remember. Apart from anything else the issue here is what to do in pre-pregnancy, which is certainly something we should not be giving advice on on PR.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
@Jonathan Edwards, she asked for some help with methylation via OTC supplements that harm far, far, vastly far fewer people every day than prescribed or professionally administered pharmaceutical medications do in the same time span.

I'm fully aware that pregnancy and pre-pregnancy are two different states. If things have changed and pre-pregnant women have suddenly been transformed into different creatures than me and the other 50% of the total population who can become pregnant but is currently not, I'm unaware of it. Folic acid and B12 are routinely prescribed by doctors pre-pregnancy, so I highly doubt suggestions about folate and mB12 are going amiss here, given that conception has not occurred. FWIW, if she had said she was actually pregnant, I probably wouldn't have responded to the thread at all beyond telling her to see her doctor.

At any rate, if lateral suggestions from peers based on our own experiences constitutes medical advice, might as well shut the whole forum down. I'm sure that's appealing to some, but it would be very sad and a grave injustice if it happened. I've gotten more good info from this forum than I have from any doctor I've ever seen, and more out of my OTC supplements than I have from any medication I've ever been prescribed. A lot of what's going on around here is provoked precisely because doctors aren't helping us. When I told my own MD about how much improvement I'd seen by undertaking a methylation protocol, she told me she'd never considered methylation therapy in the context of a "non-responder" like me (meaning I didn't really respond to anything she'd ever prescribed) but she would from then on. I honestly wish more doctors spent more time hanging around here and reading what people have to say, like you do. I don't agree with you most of the time :D, but I do admire your willingness and come read what us lowly laypeople are doing. I just wish I was convinced you see exactly what a great thing this is and how much good is actually being done here.
 
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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
A lot of what's going on around here is provoked precisely because doctors aren't helping us

There's a difference between doctors not helping because they won't or the fact that at the present time there's not a lot that can be done other than symptom relief.

There's also a difference between doctors being outright dismissive and a doctor not considering treatments because they're unproven or not biologically plausible. Like many here, I've certainly run across my share of the former.

I'm not necessarily talking about the treatments being discussed here but I think these are important distinctions. Just dismissing the medical profession or blindly following them are equally harmful and don't lend themselves to a patients best interest or critical thinking.

There are a lot of things that can and should be criticized about the medical profession and of course things are never quite as simple as what I've stated. These issues are convuluted and complicated.

Because our condition relaspes and remits, I want the best clinical evidence available.

But personal choices are personal choices

To just blame the medical profession across the board will get us nowhere. This condition is frustrating and one of the reasons is that the treatments available are limited.

Barb
 
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whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
There's a difference between doctors not helping because they won't or the fact that at the present time there's not a lot that can be done other than symptom relief.

There's also a difference between doctors being outright dismissive and a doctor not considering treatments because they're unproven or not biologically plausible. Like many here, I've certainly run across my share of the former.
I agree. But regardless of why there is a lack of help, a lack of help is a lack of help. It nets the sufferer the same result: no relief. So, when "laypeople" aren't getting help from the pros, that's when they start looking around for themselves. And, usually, when the seekers rather than the entrenched practitioners get active, that's when innovation and great leaps of progress happen. If you look at history, that's the way things usually work (in every area, not just medicine); for example, The Enlightenment happened in large measure because of the overthrow of the entrenched, calcified Catholic power structure by Protestantism. Point being, professionals frequently tend to get comfy within their areas of expertise and quit looking around "outside the box", so to speak. So in reality, the latter kinds of doctors who wait for someone to produce the evidence they need or want are frequently just as unhelpful as the former dismissive types.

Just dismissing the medical profession or blindly following them are equally harmful
I could not agree more. I may seem categorically dismissive of doctors/allopathic medicine, but I'm really not. It has its place. I would not attempt to do surgery on myself, prescribe myself abx, or anything like that. I have frequently wished for more guidance from a truly knowledgeable health professional.

But even the ones who are considered "alternative" and are very knowledgeable about supplements and natural therapies (like my doc, who is a MD but skews alternative) haven't really helped me much in the way of guidance through the sticky, complex mess of my problems. All professionals (not just doctors) tend to have a bag of tricks they like and when the bag's empty but nothing's worked, everything kind of grinds to a halt. In the main, my doctors have helped me by getting me crucial things like I needed like mB12 injections when I've asked to try those, because the things they were suggesting just weren't working, and the lab tests we need to follow my progress or lack thereof, but I can't emphasize enough that the vast majority of progress I've made with my health in the last five years has been due to the knowledge I've gained through a couple of online communities like PR. If it weren't for them, I might be dead. Not from the health problems, but from the attendant depression. I used to consider suicide on a daily basis. The pull was sometimes quite strong. If my health hadn't improved, I might have just gone ahead and done it by now.

I'm not saying life isn't worth living unless we're perfectly healthy, BTW...that was just my take on my own situation. Everyone's wired differently. Sadly, that was my wiring. But it's over now. I no longer have that outlook; fighting and hope are the order of the day.

But personal choices are personal choices
Absolutely! And that's one of my biggest problems with a lot of doctors...many of them want to take our choices away. They don't think we have any business treating ourselves with OTC supplements the way we do here on PR, because they paternalistically think we're not smart enough to not hurt ourselves, etc. There are a lot of benign substances (like injectable mB12) that are controlled by the gatekeepers of medicine that harm far, far fewer people every single day than prescription medications.

And that's what really bothers me the most. Our choices are limited by people who prescribe things that harm us more than the things we might otherwise choose.

People who want to wait for evidence before being treated should absolutely be allowed to do so. But those of us who want to innovate or use existing evidence in unconventional ways should also be allowed to do so, as well, without fear of being tut-tutted into silence by the existing power structure.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@whodathunkit
bravoo.gif
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
@whodathunkit

I respectfully and I really mean respectfully, disagree with just about everything you've said.

I don't want nor have the energy to go over a point by point rebuttal atm nor get this post more off topic than it is.

Maybe a thread at at a later time but I think there may be some already out there. I'll have to check.

I've thought about writing a blog one day about why I so strongly believe what I've stated above, but it might turn out to be book length. :lol:

I guess the world would be a boring place if we all believed in the same thing.;)

Barb
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,386
Location
Southern California
I wasn't actually suggesting that patients did the trial - I was suggesting the 'naturopaths' or whatever they call themselves who make money out of this stuff should do trials.

"Naturopath" refers to someone with very specific training - it's not a meaningless catch-all phrase - so to say "whatever they call themselves" is incorrect - http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=60

A naturopath uses standard diagnostic tests and can write prescriptions, as well as other treatment modalities.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
@josephinegolightly The most common reason people overreact to methylfolate is having the MAO R297R mutation combined with B2 deficiency (and / or thyroid dysfunction)

Hi, I'm interested in hearing about roadblocks to methylation and how people overcame them.

How do you know that the MAO/B2 deficiency is the most common? You mostly hear about CBS issues as a cause for a methylfolate overreaction.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,386
Location
Southern California
wasn't actually suggesting that patients did the trial - I was suggesting the 'naturopaths' or whatever they call themselves who make money out of this stuff should do trials.

One more thing - I was very bothered by the attitude shown here towards naturopaths. I seriously doubt you would have suggested that regular M.D.s who make tens of thousands of dollars from chemo treatments they have a vested interest in selling, and MRIs they make a profit on, do their own clinical studies (see http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertp...ecommending-the-best-treatments-for-patients/, http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...likely-to-be-negative-when-the-doctor-profits

Talk about a conflict of interest!

There's no comparison with the relatively very small sums made by naturopaths from selling supplements.

It's particularly bothersome because we CFSME patients have been abandoned by the medical profession. We've gone to our doctors over and over, and traveled great distances and spend thousands of dollars with very little result. And so we think outside the box because inside the box is empty. And sometimes naturopaths help, somewhat. They do have training and education. In an ideal world we would have clinical trials for everything and have all the answers. But they're not going to happen with nutritional supplements. No one's going to get rich selling methylfolate. So we are our own guinea pigs. It's the way it is. And some of us (including me) have been helped by some of tehse supplements. And it's not all a placebo response. I tried Richvank's protocol for 3-1/2 years, because there was nothing else out there for me to try and I felt like crap, but I stuck it out with no benefit. And I wanted it to work more than anything - no placebo response there. Then I started Freddd's protocol and within a few days my energy picked up. They are different protocols, even though similar. Anyways, that's all.
 
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minkeygirl

But I Look So Good.
Messages
4,678
Location
Left Coast
"Naturopath" refers to someone with very specific training - it's not a meaningless catch-all phrase - so to say "whatever they call themselves" is incorrect - http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=60

A naturopath uses standard diagnostic tests and can write prescriptions, as well as other treatment modalities.

I pay out of pocket to see my naturopath. I wouldn't even care if she didn't RX my antivirals which is one of the few things that has helped me. At my first appointment she said "you must feel horrible" and I wept. No one ever cared that much about how I actually felt in over 20 years of being sick.

I shouldn't have to pay to have an empathetic and compassionate doctor who has no ego and who's only interest is helping me feel better. We have a partnership like I've never experienced. She understands that I'm the one who's sick and she is there to help me.

And I should say I have never bought a single supplement from her and have never felt pressure to. This is unlike a medical doctor who I saw when I first got sick who "fired" me for noncompliance because I wouldn't buy supplements from is office.
 
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Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
Messages
699
Location
USA
Hi, I'm interested in hearing about roadblocks to methylation and how people overcame them.

How do you know that the MAO/B2 deficiency is the most common? You mostly hear about CBS issues as a cause for a methylfolate overreaction.

@caledonia From reading the forums and asking researchers. Its one of the things you see again and again ("help! I'm MAO A and can't take methylfolate"). The MAO A +/+ causes so many problems with taking many different drugs and supplements, but especially methylfolate. The MAO enzyme needs B2 and FAD (produced in the thyroid) to work and B2 deficiency is common in stressed / sick people. If MAO A is being inhibited, it can cause all kinds of bad reactions (like the list of side effects from MAO A inhibitor drugs)...and especially feelings of over stimulation. After about a month of B2 supplementtattion 3x daily... I was able to increase from 100mcg of methylfolate up to 400mcg... and after 4 months I'm up to 1.2mg metafolin per day. And lovin' it.
 
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caledonia

Senior Member
@caledonia From reading the forums and asking researchers. Its one of the things you see again and again ("help! I'm MAO A and can't take methylfolate"). The MAO A +/+ causes so many problems with taking many different drugs and supplements, but especially methylfolate. The MAO enzyme needs B2 and FAD (produced in the thyroid) to work and B2 deficiency is common in stressed / sick people. If MAO A is being inhibited, it can cause all kinds of bad reactions (like the list of side effects from MAO A inhibitor drugs)...and especially feelings of over stimulation. After about a month of B2 supplementtattion 3x daily... I was able to increase from 100mcg of methylfolate up to 400mcg... and after 4 months I'm up to 1.2mg metafolin per day. And lovin' it.

Would you say this applies only to MAO A +/+ and not MAO A +/- ? Or is still applicable in MAO A +/-, but to a lesser degree?
 

Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
Messages
699
Location
USA
@caledonia with my limited anecdotal experience, I have seen this complaint with MAO A +/+ most. I don't know and can't say for heterozygous. I have leanred about this from highly knowledgable people but have never seen it explained in an article or web site. My practitioner who is highly trained in nutrigeonomics told me "MAO A mutation means you need B2" and I have consulted with a biochemist who advised treating MAO A +/+ with small doses of B2 - at least 5mg per dose - 3 times per day for several weeks. Some people report good effects from taking sublingual FMN (B2 active form). If you have a vegeterian / vegan background, or a junky diet its not too uncommon to be low in B2.

I described how I fixed my MAO A-caused methylation block in this thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/sustained-release-methylation-protocol-srmp.36344/

P.s. this thread went somewhere way off topic. Since I was only interested in the methylation issue,I had a hard time following it.
 
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Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
I previously had issues with moderately high dose of folic acid. My symptoms were basically the classic Vitamin B12 anemia symptoms. Not sure why taking folic acid exaggerated those symptoms, but supplementing the other B vitamins cleared up my problems.
 
I just want to thank everyone for there contributions. They have been invaluable. I have found out I have an incredibly low blood level of b12, and once I dealt with that (I have been using Adnesol/Methy B12 oils) I was able to tolerate all the pregnancy supplements including Folate. The b12 has changed so many things including my anxiety levels.

I am happily pregnant (but very early).

Also just for people information, I have moderate CFS and work part time, and have a lot of family around, and we will be getting a part time nanny if I need it.

This forum is lifesaver, and the knowledge people take the time to share is so appreciated.

Jo
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
I am late for the debate, but it's still time to add:
Nutrition in pregnancy: the argument for including a source of choline.
Abstract
Women, during pregnancy and lactation, should eat foods that contain adequate amounts of choline. A mother delivers large amounts of cholineacross the placenta to the fetus, and after birth she delivers large amounts of choline in milk to the infant; this greatly increases the demand on thecholine stores of the mother. Adequate intake of dietary choline may be important for optimal fetal outcome (birth defects, brain development) and for maternal liver and placental function. Diets in many low income countries and in approximately one-fourth of women in high income countries, like the United States, may be too low in choline content. Prenatal vitamin supplements do not contain an adequate source of choline. For women who do not eat foods containing milk, meat, eggs, or other choline-rich foods, a diet supplement should be considered.
Having enough methy donors from a nutritious diet will optimize the metabolism of natural folate and B12 intake.
@josephinegolightly Congratulations! Best wishes for your pregnancy.:bouquet::hug:
Ditto!
 
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South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
I previously had issues with moderately high dose of folic acid. My symptoms were basically the classic Vitamin B12 anemia symptoms. Not sure why taking folic acid exaggerated those symptoms
@Snow Leopard Folic acid is not folate. Taking "folic acid" doesn't equate to getting folate, and in fact can cause problems with what amount of real folate you have in your system.