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Article: Dr. Mikovits and Dr. Racaniello on XMRV

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Phoenix Rising Team

    Phoenix Rising Team

  2. dean


    17 should sign this one with your last name. I understand it and so far it seems to make some sence and I am not a virologist.... Good work
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Great article, Cort, and hopeful news. Thanks for interviewing Drs Mikovits and Racaniello.

    Roll on those two true replication studies!
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Good idea - forgot to do that. Thanks
  5. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    She sounds very hopeful about the replications studies as well as some others on the way that have good cohorts. She sounds like we'll have some good news soon. ;)
  6. parvofighter

    parvofighter Senior Member

    Thanks Cort

    A thoughtful, excellent, balanced article. I learned a lot. The only comment I'd add is vis a vis the Prelude. I believe that XMRV is less and less "up in the air". Racaniello and Mikovits and you presented many cogent arguments that other researchers are still missing the boat in lab and cohort selection methods. Not the least of which are Racaniello's stunning (thank you!) comments:
    <link rel="File-List" href="file:///E:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CDANIEL%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">I suspect that the single most important variable in the negative studies is how you define the patient population. They are probably looking at very different subsets."
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>And his comment on the CDC never having demonstrated that their methods could detect a clinical (human) positive XMRV sample (as opposed to a laboratory derived standard XMRV)<link rel="File-List" href="file:///E:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CDANIEL%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" name="PersonName"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
    In my view the CDC paper should not have been published without a proper positive control, eg patient samples known to contain XMRV. If I had reviewed the CDC paper that<st1:personname w:st="on">'</st1:personname>s what I would have asked for.
    Wow. Good news too that as per Dr Mikovits:
    I know of at least two true replication studies that are being done in very well characterized CFS cohorts.
    Thank you Cort.
  7. Doogle

    Doogle Senior Member

    Cort, Mindy Kitei not Mindy Katei.
  8. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    thanks Parvofighter and thanks Doogle - I changed it.
  9. CBS

    CBS Senior Member

    Thanks, Cort! Excellent article.

    I haven't always felt comfortable with the back and forth between the WPI and other labs but I do appreciate their frustration with a dearth of actual replication studies. Mikovits is right on in that good replication studies should have come first followed by work to determine what if any meaning should be ascribed to the Science findings once they were confirmed (or dis-confirmed).

    I'm very much looking forward to Drs. Bateman and Racaniello on Thursday.

    Parvo - good point.
  10. Really great work...enjoyed it very much! I look forward to your reporting everyday!

  11. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

    The cohort issue can't be the deciding factor - it has to be down to either contamination with the WPI or inappropriate testing from the negative studies. The zero results are significantly lower than the WPI's results for healthy controls.

    It would be nice to hear a real discussion directly between Mikovits and Racaniello, but thanks to Cort for acting as the go-between on this one.
  12. CBS

    CBS Senior Member

    I just sent this the CAA:

  13. Otis

    Otis Señor Mumbler


    Great interviews and a fantastic article. Dr. Racaniello's independent statement about the lack of a proper patient controls is very telling. (I've been wondering about those peer reviewers...) He was much more generous to the CDC on TWIV right after publication. He's obviously dug in a bit, which I'm glad to see.

    I learned a great deal as well.

    Great stuff. I say blog this one. Let's get the word out there. The lay press will never get this level of detail but many patients and advocates will.

  14. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

    I'm not sure Racaniello was interpreting Mikovits correctly when he said:

    I think Mikovits was referring to biological amplification prior to extraction, not to standard PCR amplification. Perhaps her statement could have been clearer, but if I am correct then I believe Racaniello misunderstood it. I can't find any reference to biological amplification (i.e. activation/ culture) of cells in the CDC study (and there is none in any of the other negative studies). Racaniello seems to be speaking only of routine PCR amplification of extracted DNA.

    ETA - Mikovits may also have been referring to amplification by RT-PCR, which was also not done in the CDC study..
  15. consuegra

    consuegra Senior Member

    This guy Cort Johnson is really great. He is the best. I am always amazed at how quickly and how well he puts together this information that makes things clearer and more comprehensible for the rest of us - and the amazing thing is that he does it every day. It is not easy to assemble this information. Sometimes I wonder how he does it - and even why he does it. I just hope he knows just how many people appreciate his efforts of their behalf. Thanks Cort!

  16. LaurelW

    LaurelW Senior Member

    Excellent article, Cort. Enjoyable read as well. Just one comment--in the study that the Drs. Light are doing with Dr. Ila Singh, they are culturing the virus. I don't know if they are doing a replication study, as I read somewhere on these forums that Dr. Singh has developed her own methods of detecting XMRV.
  17. oceanblue

    oceanblue Guest

    Thanks, Cort. You do a great job of explaining some fairly heavy-duty science as well as cutting through all the emotion that tends to swamp discussions of XMRV and the like.
  18. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    That's great to hear that Dr. Singh is culturing the virus. None of the studies have done this. This is soooo technical but I assume that the WPI is culturing the virus out of patient samples and then looking at it very closely and that's where the difference is.

    There still are alot of questions...the WPI was able to find it without culturing in PCR early on, if I understood this impression was that Dr. Mikovits thinks that the Science patients were really ill and that may differentiate them from the patients in the other studies; XMRV may be there but in a slightly different form that they are not looking for.

    Thanks for the nice comments :Retro smile:
  19. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    I agree that the cohort can't be the deciding factor - but it could contribute and when you throw these other factors they should drive the results down. My guess is yours, though, it's methodological errors on someones part that are chiefly responsible for the discrepancies. I think Dr. Racaniello is overestimating how different that initial cohort was. Dr. Mikovits thinks most people who fit the CCC definition will test positive.
  20. Lynn

    Lynn Senior Member

    Ditto on the great article. It's good to hear that Dr. Racaniello has closely looked at the CDC paper and that he understands the cohort issue. I wonder if he gets the politics as well?

    Great job!


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