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Anyone else with high histamine and insomnia?

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by leanguy, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. leanguy

    leanguy

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    I forgot about this thread. I've found another solution that has really helped. I'm low in copper. Taking copper has improved much of my symptoms. Copper breaks down histamine, and I believe that is why it's helped.
     
  2. JuliaMaple

    JuliaMaple

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    I had high histamine as well, and follow a low histamine diet now.
    I used to be unable to fall asleep if I had eaten the wrong type of food or had something with alcohol in it, which is very high in histamine. For me there 'definitely' a strong link between histamine and problematic sleep. (also between histamine and stomach/bowel problems).

    I have always been someone to avoid alcohol almost 100%, even when I was young. But when I met my current partner it changed. He sometimes puts a lot of effort in creating a really nice dinner, and sometimes had some type of wine to go with it. I enjoyed that too, so that is where I started drinking alcohol sometimes. I quickly found out that wine (alcohol) causes me to be completely and utterly unable to sleep.
    A doctor specialized in allergies, did not find any specific allergies but she did find I had high histamine, and advised a very strict low histamine diet.
    Since then, I do not have insomnia anymore, unless I cheat and eat or drink something with lots of histamine in it. Alcohol is by far the worst one for me, it is really high in histamine.
    A glass of wine will give instant insomnia. Its such a strong effect that I 'could' use it if I want to stay very awake for the whole night, I could eat histamine on purpose. It would work. (and would also have a bit too many downsides :p)
    But insomnia can also happen when I eat several types of food with lower amount in it, it just stacks up.

    I do not know why I have high histamine, and why my body does not seem to be able to clear it very well. I have thought about the link with cortisol before, but so far there has not been any doctor who is willing to test or explore it.

    I have found that nettle tea can sometimes help in a mild way, not much but I still use it. I read somewhere that nettle helps to break it down, like a natural antihistamine. So maybe you could try drinking several cups of a good nettle tea throughout the day, and some more in the evening. Maybe for 'at least' three days to give it a chance of lowering the histamine stack (that is what I call it now)
    Its probably not strong enough, but it doesn't hurt to try I guess.

    And I would definitely stay away from alcohol. :)
     
  3. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I am still having issues even with a low histamine diet. As far as I can tell there are a at least a few things that can cause a histamine issue
    1) Low methylation
    2) Low cortisol
    3) High histamine diet
    4) Dysbiosis
    5) Low DAO (try a DAO supplement)

    I don't think a permanent low histamine diet is a great idea as you will still probably have the underlying issue.
    I would keep it up as long as you need to but would look into the above issues.

    Have you had a stool test? I have pretty bad dysbiosis and that is at least part of my problem .
     
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Itchy eyes is low B2 for me. Unfortunately if I take a bit of B2 I get exacerbation of symptoms and need to keep upping B2, which I can't because I get low iron and the whole cascade.
     
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  5. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks Gondwanaland for the idea! However since I am taking 100 mg B2 I don't think that is it. perhaps too much B2?! Perhaps dysbiosis? Candida? SIBO? I'm not sure what to try or eliminate next!
     
  6. JuliaMaple

    JuliaMaple

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    Hey there @heyitisjustin, thank you for your reply.
    I am sorry that I only noticed it now, I realize it has been quite a while. But I wanted to reply so here it is.
    I agree with you very much, but have found that it is so very hard to get the hospital to do any testing.

    When the histamine thing was noticed by the allergy expert, I asked her if she could send me to a doctor that could search with me for the reasons for it. She send me to an internist.
    I was really hopeful back then, and thought I would finally get real help. But the internist did not take me serious 'at all', she did not listen to me. She just looked at me dully, checked some random things. (like my breasts for lumps, and felt my stomach and belly). That was all. It actually brought me to tears and I came close to begging her for more help, then she asked me if I was depressed. I was there for about 8 minutes and then she needed to check on her next visitor.
    It was completely useless.
    I have had more experiences like that since then.
    And as long as they do not help me, I follow the diet because at the least it helps with some of the symptoms in a big way.

    I myself suspect its cortisol. I asked if it could be checked when I talked to my current doctor last time, which is a neurologist that I respect. But he also decided that it was not useful to search any further for the reasons of my troubles. I have pots like symptoms too, often lowish blood pressure readings and narrow pulse pressure. He was the one that agreed to do a tilt table test, I am grateful about that (very).
    But he did not look into the 'why' of that either. Only the tilt table test was done and a very quick sweat test. He prescribed medication for my blood pressure.

    I think I have glucose/insulin problems too because I have really strong reactions to breakfast. I often become so sleepy that I fall asleep for hours. Right before breakfast I feel sort of ok, after, my head just goes into a coma. If I do not eat, I feel 'way' better. This could also be cortisol related I think. Because it regulates blood sugar (if I understand it right).

    I do have an appointment with him this month and keep hoping that he will allow more tests to be done, because I feel horrible now. But I am afraid that I do not have a lot of confidence in that anymore. I am afraid that he might be telling me that its the last appointment, just one to check if I am doing ok on the medication. (fludrocortisone)
    I think the best doctor to go to now, would probably be an endocrinologist. But I do not know if I will get the opportunity.
     
    Izola likes this.
  7. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Hi @heyitisjustin and @JuliaMaple, I am having my problems too and think a lot of it stems from the gut. I tend towards Candida and in efforts to knock that lower I have taken some herbals that totally messed up my gut. I seem to be lacking a good mucous barrier in stomach and gut. I also am very low SIgA which is the immune response in the gut. I am starting back on l-glutamine and zinc carnosine as they helped me before.

    I have terribly itchy eyes and have now decided that I should do another Comprehensive Digestive and Stool analysis and see what is growing in there that I can possibly treat. As my gut lining is pretty sensitive I have to be careful. I tried using probiotics and S. Boulardi, a yeast that can displace the Candida but felt more foggy in the head and perhaps increased in itchy eyes.

    Still I think that using the right probiotics might be the answer or part of the answer. Histamine degrading ones. I really need to do the research. Since I have some SIBO (small bowel bacteria) I can't overload with probiotics. Also anything fermented seems to not agree with me.

    I agree with you @heyitisjustin about the possible causes of high histamine. Thanks for listing! I will get to work on them. ll this has
    1) Low methylation - my doctor wants me to retest homocysteine to help determine methylation status. Or do the methylation test at @$300
    2) Low cortisol - Really? I think my cortisol is often high.
    3) High histamine diet - I make some efforts re diet and have for a very long time. Need to read more. And do more!
    4) Dysbiosis - Yup!
    5) Low DAO (try a DAO supplement) I am trying this and it may be helping. How many per day are you taking? I read that 90% of people with migraine have low DAO and I have had a huge problem with migraines earlier in my life. That is why I have avoided fermented foods and leftovers. I also have a + - on the DAO snp on 23andme.

    However...here is interesting research...
    http://alisonvickery.com.au/the-histamine-intolerance-and-diamine-oxidase-connection/
    "Although the study found that four SNPs were associated with reduced DAO activity and symptoms in patients with HIT, these four SNPs on their own are not sufficient to cause an individual to have HIT.Although the study found that four SNPs were associated with reduced DAO activity and symptoms in patients with HIT, these four SNPs on their own are not sufficient to cause an individual to have HIT." HIT is Histamine Intolerance.

    I'm thinking I should have my histamine levels checked. Have either of you done that? Blood test? I've been assuming that it is an allergy that I am dealing with but could be totally wrong. If allergy, environmental or from the gut?

    All this has been going on since April and I am really tired of it.

    I am so sorry Julia that you have had such bad luck with doctors. I doubt that an endocrinologist will be any better. I think what I/we need is a functional medicine doctor....mostly found in the natural medicine circles.

    I do have a naturopath and must get back in to see her! She is very helpful but in the end I often have to figure out these things for myself. Trial and error.

    @JuliaMaple In reading more about histamine I see the connection with blood sugar problems. In case you are interested...
    http://alisonvickery.com.au/histamine-and-blood-sugar/

    All the best!
     
    BBQGirl and heyitisjustin like this.
  8. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I did the same thing with garlic and low carb. I wish I thought of my beneficial bacteria.
    Why the l-glutamine and zinc carnosine? Are they for leaky gut?

    Let me know how probiotics works for you they haven't seemed helpful to me. I am using GOS and another fiber that supposedly only help good bacteria. I am also taking butyrate which I think also only helps good bacteria

    That sounds like a lot for the test.That is just for homocysteine? Do you have insurance?
    It might be worth just experimenting with methylation (slow and low) to save money

    Cortisol and adrenaline are the bodies ways of lowering histamine from what I understand. High cortisol could be your bodies attempt to fight the problem. People who fight stress, histamine, etc for years might burn out there adrenals and end up with low cortisol. As a result they might have high histamine that could resolve by helping the adrenals.

    I am not sure if DAO is helping me. I had given up on it due to it's less than stellar performance and high cost. My naturopath had me restart it at two pills per meal. It might be helping some.
    Alison sounds interesting. Thanks for sharing her, I will have to see if she is on any podcasts.

    I had a blood test and it seemed fine. I am not sure how accurate they are maybe your naturopath knows.
    Supposedly we have a histamine tolerance (or bucket as the low histamine chef likes to say) that includes both food and environment. All I know is wine, old fish, old ground meat, etc will cause my heart to race. A heart rate montior and my observation seems to indicate pretty clearly that histamine is a problem for me. I'm just not sure why. I'd guess its my gut due to antibiotics, garlic and low carb.

    While I tend to agree with this sentiment (I've had little allopathic help) and Endocrinologist should cost much less than a naturopath,etc. If you think you have a cortisol or blood sugar issue a good Endocrinologist could be helpful. If you have insurance it's probably worth doing just to rule things out.
     
  9. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    Looking at your stool could be useful to indicate if your problem is dysbiosis. My stool were often lighter color. Using castor oil packs, digestive enzymes and probiotics seem to have improved that. It has also increased frequency. I am not sure how much this improved digestion will help with histamine (I haven't noticed anything yet)
     
  10. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I have POTS as well. I probably have dysautonomia as well. Long term use of steroids (that's what I was perscribed and what I assume you were as well) can cause problems. I would try to supplement them with salt and adrenal supports. I don't know if an Endo is likely to help you here, but I really think that you should give it a shot if you can.

    I think that cortisol lowers insulin (or was that sugar?). Have you had a fasting glucose or HGA1C?
    I had low blood sugar and I felt worse on an empty stomach. Perhaps you feel better because you aren't feeding bad bacteria (or do you have high blood sugar?)?

    Hang in there. I know it is frustrating, but hopefully you'll get through this soon. Have you talked to friends/family about your frustrations?
     
  11. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Hi @heyitisjustin, I will try to answer your questions but I don't know how to insert answers as you have done. See the italics.

    Why the l-glutamine and zinc carnosine? Are they for leaky gut?
    Yes


    Let me know how probiotics works for you they haven't seemed helpful to me. I am using GOS and another fiber that supposedly only help good bacteria. I am also taking butyrate which I think also only helps good bacteria
    I think I have some SIBO which means the fiber would not work for me.



    That sounds like a lot for the test.That is just for homocysteine? Do you have insurance?
    It might be worth just experimenting with methylation (slow and low) to save money
    The $300 is for the Methylation panel. I think the homocysteine test is @85. My insurance does not pay for either.



    Cortisol and adrenaline are the bodies ways of lowering histamine from what I understand. High cortisol could be your bodies attempt to fight the problem. People who fight stress, histamine, etc for years might burn out there adrenals and end up with low cortisol. As a result they might have high histamine that could resolve by helping the adrenals.
    I suspect my adrenals are good. I do take some adrenal support.


    I am not sure if DAO is helping me. I had given up on it due to it's less than stellar performance and high cost. My naturopath had me restart it at two pills per meal. It might be helping some.
    I will try taking the DAO at each meal.

    Alison sounds interesting. Thanks for sharing her, I will have to see if she is on any podcasts.
    So many people to follow and so much to read!!!


    I had a blood test and it seemed fine. I am not sure how accurate they are maybe your naturopath knows.
    Supposedly we have a histamine tolerance (or bucket as the low histamine chef likes to say) that includes both food and environment. All I know is wine, old fish, old ground meat, etc will cause my heart to race. A heart rate montior and my observation seems to indicate pretty clearly that histamine is a problem for me. I'm just not sure why. I'd guess its my gut due to antibiotics, garlic and low carb.
    I will ask my ND. And will try the heart rate monitor. Good idea.

    Thanks for your ideas! Oci
     
  12. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    @heyitisjustin Are you only using GOS and the other fiber? They are not probiotics, I think. There is a list of probiotics that increase histamine and those that degrade it. If I find it I will post.
     
  13. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I don't know much about SIBO. I know I have histamine intolerance but where the problem is located is unknown.
    I have pain in my left side (like a stich you'd get from running). I'd assume that would indicate a large intestine problem, but I don't know how accurately I can pinpoint the pain.
    Did you do the breathing test to determine your SIBO status?

    arabinogalactan and GOS will increase good bacteria. I am not sure how they'd affect SIBO.
    If it gets digested in the small intestine I could see it causing a problem. Did you find out about the fiber/SIBO connection through personal experience?

    Dr Grace Liu seems pretty knowledgeable in terms of SIBO (although she definitely has her critics).

    The thread

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ge-is-it-the-key-weve-been-looking-for.26976/

    also has been useful to me.


    I am not sure how useful the Methylation panel would be. I got 23AndMe when it was $99 (its 199 now I think).
    Since genetics only show a probability (which I think is pretty low e.g. less than a 40% likelihood of having a problem) it might not be worth worrying about the panel. I'd go with the homocysteine test first as it would indicate an actual problem.

    Do you have insurance at all? I have low platelets and two of the MCV/MCH/MCHC values are repeatedly messed up. I am suggesting these (or other alternatives) in case they are cheaper for you and your naturopath thinks that they might indicate a problem. You could also try methylation supplements. If you feel better it doesn't particularly matter what the labs say, right? Just don't go too fast in case you are an overmethylator. There is also a niacin test which supposedly assesses your methylation status. I don't know how accurate it is, but the general idea is that niacin stops methylation. So if you take a small amount of methylation and feel awful you are a poor methylator. If you have to take a lot of niacin to feel awful you are probably overmethylating (there are exact dosage values online)
     
  14. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    GOS and arabinogalactan are prebiotics. You might want to search the amazon reviews for them and see if they make sense for you (e.g. if anyone with SIBO had good results).

    The low histamine chef has a probiotics list that seemed pretty good

    I take a few probiotics, but they don't seem super helpful. I am taking
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Lactobacillus Plantarum, a bifio complex, Prescript Assist and possibly a couple more
     
  15. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks @heyitisjustin Actually the prebiotics are not good for those with SIBO. They feed the problem. I have figured out some probiotics that are histamine degrading but more importantly need to increase DAO. Took several yesterday and felt much less itchy.
     
    heyitisjustin likes this.
  16. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    That sounds great! Which probiotics seem to be helping?
     
  17. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    I haven't tried them yet but according to the fellow on selfhacked website these are the ones that Degrade
    B infantis - Align
    B longum - essential Probiotics also has H Helveticus and L Rhamnosus and I don't know if they are good or bad
    L plantarum - Swanson

    Ones to avoid...
    L casei
    L reuteri
    L bulgaricus

    I have been using Lactobif for the past 2 weeks as I've been having an oxalate problem and it helps that. It contains:
    a Probiotic Bacteria Blend of:
    30 Billion CFU †
    Composed of the following strains:
    Lactobacillus acidophilus (La-14)
    Bifidobacterium lactis (BI-04)
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus (Lr-32)
    Lactobacillus plantarum (Lp-115)
    Bifidobacterium longum (BI-05)
    Bifidobacterium breve (Bb-03)
    Lactobacillus casei (Lc-11)
    Lactobacillus salivarius (Ls-33)

    However, I see now that it contains...l casei. As for the beneficial, it has B longum and L plantarum.

    I would like to know more and just need to find the time to do the research! Would appreciate any insights others have.
     
    heyitisjustin likes this.
  18. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    Rhamnosus is supposed to be good. Soil Based Organisms have some disagreement as to there utility but they seem to be working for me better than Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Lactobacillus Plantarum, and bifido.
    I might want to try align again later, it didn't seem to do to much last time I took it.
     
  19. kjellfh

    kjellfh

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    Hey leanguy. Just wondered how you are doing. I have a similar insomnia as you had/have(?) Together with feeling warm and elevated pulse++ for 4 years now. Tried two two different types of copper some time ago but to no help. Only thing that helps for me is H1 antagonists but just for tops some weeks at a time.
     
  20. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX

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    Bumping a good thread. I’m struggling with histamine intolerance and insomnia as well.
     

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