Andrew Wakefield links autism to CFS

[eastcoast12]

Who? I want details.

The modern anti-vax movement started because of him. Every year kids die or are seriously damaged by diseases that could be prevented with vaccines or a properly maintained herd immunity. I didn't provide any links but if you do a basic Google search on the topic you can find a bunch of info.

 

[roller]

the anti-vax movement would have started without him, too.

there are kids dieing without and because of the vaccine.
looking rationally at those numbers, we could perhaps argue like that: even if more kids die of vax then these fatalities are 'justified' by the otherwise huge protection of the community by the vaccine.

however, what we have since vaccinations is an exploding number of 'syndromes'. with no cure.

we know, that children of vaccinated mothers never can get the immune protection she had.
we dont know what vaccines do in the long term and we should care about that much, as the first indications give clear clues, that it seems something irreparable.

 

[Snow Leopard]

The modern anti-vax movement started because of him. Every year kids die or are seriously damaged by diseases that could be prevented with vaccines or a properly maintained herd immunity.

I'm not sure this can be demonstrated statistically based on the evidenec. Vaccination rates have remained high and deaths low (zero difference in deaths in Australia). The percentage of anti-vax people is very small.

The biggest limitation preventing 100% of children being vaccinated is health care access and cost.

As usual, it is easier to blame and demonise others than to actually make sacrifices ourselves and fix structural problems.

 

[wastwater]

The way I started to see it is that some people have an odd reaction to viruses due to there genetics.
might be worth finding out if there is increased levels of inherited immunodeficiency alongside inherited ASD

 

[eastcoast12]

the anti-vax movement would have started without him, too.

there are kids dieing without and because of the vaccine.
looking rationally at those numbers, we could perhaps argue like that: even if more kids die of vax then these fatalities are 'justified' by the otherwise huge protection of the community by the vaccine.

however, what we have since vaccinations is an exploding number of 'syndromes'. with no cure.

we know, that children of vaccinated mothers never can get the immune protection she had.
we dont know what vaccines do in the long term and we should care about that much, as the first indications give clear clues, that it seems something irreparable.

you are right, it may have started without him. But he played a huge role bringing it mainstream which lead to what we are seeing today.

You are also correct that people do die from vaccines but the majority of cases are because of allergic reactions. There may be a few from Guillain barre but the number is extremely low.

About your comment regarding unknown syndromes and vaccines. I could easily say something like: since we started using unleaded gas or arm machines or since people started eating fast food there have been an exploding number of syndromes. There are way to many environmental and genetic factors to correlate vaccines and syndromes

I never heard about passive immunity being compromised because of vaccines. Thinking about it now I can't quite make sense of how or why. but like I said, I know nothing about that.

My concern about the vax stuff is no one knows what cause these "mystery" syndromes. But I think it is irresponsible to blame vaxxes. We have eradicated a number of major illnesses, are close to getting rid of a couple more and they may save millions of lives around the globe.

Either way it will be interesting to see what are causing these syndromes. Thinking about how far we advanced in the past 20 years in the medical field I really hope within the next 20 we can finally understand how our bodies actually work. And if your right about the vaxxes and syndromes, I'll buy you a sixer(if you drink)

 

[eastcoast12]

I'm not sure this can be demonstrated statistically based on the evidenec. Vaccination rates have remained high and deaths low (zero difference in deaths in Australia). The percentage of anti-vax people is very small.

The biggest limitation preventing 100% of children being vaccinated is health care access and cost.

As usual, it is easier to blame and demonise others than to actually make sacrifices ourselves and fix structural problems.

I'm not that well informed about what's going on in Australia but there's a pretty strong anti vax movement in the US. There are a few places where the anti vax population is so great that there is no heard immunity any more.

We also had a huge number of preventable outbreaks the past few years. All of these outbreaks were from diseases that have vaccinations. There have been a number of stories over the past few years about kids dying from these diseases. They are dying in communities that all have large anti-vax populations. There's some links down below that are pretty interesting.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

http://www.who.int/immunization/topics/pertussis/en/index.html

http://io9.gizmodo.com/all-of-these-outbreaks-could-have-been-prevented-with-v-1505667747

 

[eastcoast12]

One last thing. I felt like I went off topic and on a bit of s tangent. Regardless of how we feel about AW and vaccines, CFS/ME sucks really really bad and I hope one day we can all be considered cured

 

[Snow Leopard]

We also had a huge number of preventable outbreaks the past few years. All of these outbreaks were from diseases that have vaccinations. There have been a number of stories over the past few years about kids dying from these diseases. They are dying in communities that all have large anti-vax populations. There's some links down below that are pretty interesting.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

http://www.who.int/immunization/topics/pertussis/en/index.html

http://io9.gizmodo.com/all-of-these-outbreaks-could-have-been-prevented-with-v-1505667747

Much of this is hype. People like to blame and demonise others rather than address the underlying structural issues.

The WHO statistics show the true picture: "Measles vaccination resulted in a 79% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2014 worldwide."

We've seen the same hype in Australia. Yet vaccination rates have increased, Measles hasn't made a comeback compared to recent historical trends (though the media regularly claims it has).

Pertussis is still an issue, but the reservoir is not unvaccinated children, but adults. Of children with the infection aged less than 4, over 80% were fully vaccinated. There is an alternative hypothesis about Pertussis rates that fits with the evidence: http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1004138

 

[roller]

when voices are getting louder in europe, regarding the missing efficancy of vaccinations or 'sudden' issues with neglected diseases...
they may blame the migrant wave...

 

[Snow Leopard]

when voices are getting louder in europe, regarding the missing efficancy of vaccinations or 'sudden' issues with neglected diseases...
they may blame the migrant wave...

No doubt some will. Easier to blame others as I've been saying...

 

[eastcoast12]

Much of this is hype. People like to blame and demonise others rather than address the underlying structural issues.

I can't seem to agree with you about it being all hype. For the past few years here, there have been a number of high profile outbreaks like the Disney outbreak and the California outbreak but there have been a number of others that haven't really been hyped up by the media.

You keep mentioning underlying structural issues, would you mind expanding on that a bit. I don't think I understand what you mean

 

[picante]

The modern anti-vax movement started because of him. Every year kids die or are seriously damaged by diseases that could be prevented with vaccines or a properly maintained herd immunity. I didn't provide any links but if you do a basic Google search on the topic you can find a bunch of info.

Now there's an empty reply. If you're going to accuse Wakefield of causing deaths, you'll need to establish a more direct link to make it convincing.

Wakefield was in favor of separating the MMR into three vaccines, given at different times. When I looked at the US National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program payout chart, they listed which vaccine was to blame. There were indeed a large number of encephalitis cases and "residual seizure disorder" cases attributed to the MMR, and a review of scientific literature backs this up. One example: http://www.jocn-journal.com/article/S0967-5868(08)00189-6/abstract

The chart I saw over a year ago has been removed from the NVICP website, according to this article, and I can't find it. In the section entitled "Older Data Doesn’t Reflect Uptick in Awards to Vaccine Victims", you'll find recent statistics.

Japan decided to separate the three vaccines because there were too many "injuries" (read: permanent disabilities).

I differ strongly with your blaming of Wakefield for those "holdout" families. That's silly; how could one discredited doctor possibly change people's strongly held beliefs about the benefits of vaccination?

There is nothing more convincing to parents than a vaccine-injured child. And you seem to think it's all or nothing with these families. Wrong again. Many families choose a partial vaccination schedule or a slowed one. And many don't realize that the first and second children did have vaccine reactions until the third one has a disabling reaction. And BTW, the DTap and DTP are associated with many more disabling injuries (and payouts by the NVICP) than the MMR.

 

[Wayne]

Interestingly, this nurse was from the Philippines and complained to me of the corruption in her country that has prevented adequate health care, including vaccination. She told me that measles was very common, and wished health care was more like the US.

One of the biggest risk factors for children who contract measles is a vitamin A deficiency. My understanding is its the primary cause of death from measles. Vitamin A deficiency is rampant in the Phillipines, which is why efforts are being made to introduce a GMO rice which has higher levels of vitamin A. As you can imagine, there's controversy surrounding that issue as well.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/gmo-debate-grows-golden-rice-philippines/​

Japan decided to separate the three vaccines because there were too many "injuries" (read: permanent disabilities).

Hi @picante,

Thanks for your posts. Japan has banned the MMR. Apparently the government of Japan agrees with Andrew Wakefield (and many other so called "anti-vaxxers") that these three vaccines should not be given at one time.

(There goes Offit's tens of millions of dollars in profits from his patent on the MMR. Hmmmm, could this be a clue why there's so much resistance to--and demonization of--Andrew Wakefield?)
-
Japan has also reversed its recommendation that children be vaccinated for the HPV vaccine (Gardasil), one of the worst vaccines out there. In short, there are a LOT of problems with current vaccination practices and policy.​

 

[Undisclosed]

One of the biggest risk factors for children who contract measles is a vitamin A deficiency. My understanding is its the primary cause of death from measles. Vitamin A deficiency is rampant in the Phillipines, which is why efforts are being made to introduce a GMO rice which has higher levels of vitamin A. As you can imagine, there's controversy surrounding that issue as well.​

No Wayne the biggest risk factor for contracting measles is being unvaccinated and then being exposed to the measles virus.​

Hi @picante,

Thanks for your posts. Japan has banned the MMR. Apparently the government of Japan agrees with Andrew Wakefield (and many other so called "anti-vaxxers") that these three vaccines should not be given at one time.

(There goes Offit's tens of millions of dollars in profits from his patent on the MMR. Hmmmm, could this be a clue why there's so much resistance to--and demonization of--Andrew Wakefield?)
-
Japan has also reversed its recommendation that children be vaccinated for the HPV vaccine (Gardasil), one of the worst vaccines out there. In short, there are a LOT of problems with current vaccination practices and policy.​

Yes, Japan banned the MMR not because they agreed with Wakefield. And guess what Wayne, the incidence of Austism did not go down after they banned it. So, really it means no association.

 

[Violeta]

Yes, Japan banned the MMR not because they agreed with Wakefield.

If one could say that Japan thought the vaccine was dangerous, as it says in this quote:

The triple jab was banned in Japan in 1993 after 1.8 million children had been given two types of MMR and a record number developed non-viral meningitis and other adverse reactions.

would it be logical to say that Japan thought the same thing about the MMR vaccine as what Wakefield thought?

And could you say that their thoughts were in agreement with Wakefield's thoughts?

 

[Undisclosed]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan/

 

[Violeta]

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/mmr-errors.htm

One thing besides it saying that autism did go down, is that it says that ALL vaccines contribute to autism! So MMR vaccine shows almost immediate, very obvious destruction of health, perhaps that went down. But Japan did not stop all vaccines.

 

[Undisclosed]

Do any of you have any personal experience with autism. If you did, you wouldn't be posting what is absolute unproven crap.

Vaccines do not contribute to autism -- end of. The saddest thing of all, is that Wakefield caused a whole bunch of research related to "do vaccines cause autism". Who paid. Children -- all the money that should have been spent on their support was spent on research related to vaccines. Wakefield's study has never been replicated. And it never will.

I am a parent of a child who is on the 'spectrum' and vaccines had sweet f-all to do with it.

Google this -- the DSM made a huge mistake which resulted in children being diagnosed when they shouldn't have been-- it caused a fake spike in new cases -- why a typo -- putting 'or' instead of 'and'.

Look at the MRI's of children with autism compared with controls. How would a vaccine cause a child's brain to significantly change in size after a vaccination. Vaccinations as a cause doesn't even make sense. Do some research and stop parroting the bullshit put out by anti-vaxxers that know absolutely zero about autism. Talk to people with autism - -they don't like to be treated as subnormal physically ill people. Most like to be considered as not neurotypical.

Andrew Wakefield made up stuff, faked data, got paid for faking data. But still, people still argue he was on the up and up. He got what he deserved. He deserved to be struck of as a doctor. He kind of reminds of Judy Mikovits -- making unproven comments about associations, producing an un-replicable study and using the patient population to foot the bills for legal issues. It's disgusting.

I look at my daughter. She has been like the way she was from birth. She had all her immunizations -- no side-effects what-so-ever. As a mother do I try to cure my child of a developmental disability by shoving bleach up her back-passage, chelating her, denying her food she loves - basically abusing her. No, it's not an 'illness'. She is a human being who thinks differently -- for whatever reason. I embrace her differences and accept she thinks differently. She is not ill. Vaccines did not cause her illness. The stupidity of anti-Vaxers is just that, stupidity. Anybody saying vaccines cause autism are woefully ignorant of the disorder.

And even though Wakefield was totally discredited - proven that he fudged data -- still people still support him? Why because they are ignorant and know nothing about autism. It's so sad and demoralizing for me as a parent to read the shit that supports vaccines cause autism because there is no proof.

Bottom line -- before you start pontificating about what you think you know about autism -- actually research it - pay attention to parents and avoid the conspiracy crap posted by autism one. Look at the science.

(Edited to add -- this wasn't meant to be a personal attack on anybody and I am sorry if members thought that it was. I was just being human and having a rant about a topic that is very personal to me)

 

[eastcoast12]

Now there's an empty reply. If you're going to accuse Wakefield of causing deaths, you'll need to establish a more direct link to make it convincing.

Wakefield was in favor of separating the MMR into three vaccines, given at different times. When I looked at the US National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program payout chart, they listed which vaccine was to blame. There were indeed a large number of encephalitis cases and "residual seizure disorder" cases attributed to the MMR, and a review of scientific literature backs this up. One example: http://www.jocn-journal.com/article/S0967-5868(08)00189-6/abstract

The chart I saw over a year ago has been removed from the NVICP website, according to this article, and I can't find it. In the section entitled "Older Data Doesn’t Reflect Uptick in Awards to Vaccine Victims", you'll find recent statistics.

Japan decided to separate the three vaccines because there were too many "injuries" (read: permanent disabilities).

I differ strongly with your blaming of Wakefield for those "holdout" families. That's silly; how could one discredited doctor possibly change people's strongly held beliefs about the benefits of vaccination?

There is nothing more convincing to parents than a vaccine-injured child. And you seem to think it's all or nothing with these families. Wrong again. Many families choose a partial vaccination schedule or a slowed one. And many don't realize that the first and second children did have vaccine reactions until the third one has a disabling reaction. And BTW, the DTap and DTP are associated with many more disabling injuries (and payouts by the NVICP) than the MMR.

People who are in a position of power or influence have a responsibility to provide the public with the most accurate and thoroughly researched information possible. Regardless of what you believe, Andrew Wakefield is directly responsible for the militant anti-vax movement in the US ( not sure about the rest of the world). Pretty much every single anti-vax spokesperson based their opinions on his research. Unfortunately we live in a society where celebrity has become the equivilant of extremely educated professionals. The celebrities that really fueled the anti-vax also based their opinions on Wakefield. These celebrities were extremely extremely vocal across all media formats. Major news networks and talk shows allowed these people time on air in front of millions of people to push their beliefs onto the public. This caused a shit ton of people to believe these extremely ignorant and highly uneducated celebrities. ( Dr Oz is a beautiful example of this). Because of this people started believing the hype and stopped vaxxing their kids which caused kids to die. So I think this is far from an empty reply. Sure his hands weren't around the necks of the kids who died but his bullshit is what started it all.
Look at the AIDS deniers. Exactly the same situation. A few scientists who conducted shitty research caused an AIDS denial movement which directly caused 100's of thousands of people to die.

There's nothing wrong with coming to the wrong conclusion or having your hypothesis debunked, but when you continue to push wrong info to the public you crossed the line to negligence. These scientist keep pushing their disproven beliefs onto susceptible public. When does that become a crime. We bitch and complain about how CBT and GET are being pushed to treat cfs without any evidence supporting that they're effective. In fact there Is more evidence that CBT and GET is harmful to people with cfs. I think in the future when they figure out what caused cfs and how CBT/GET was in fact harmful, many of us would feel somewhat vindicated if some of these pseudo science psychosomatic cfs deniers faced some sort of medical hearing or having their creds taken away because they refused to believe the evidence.
I find this far from silly, in fact I honestly believe that these people should be held responsible for the damage they cause by regurgitating bullshit. I mean a simple analogy would be: I don't believe running red lights is dangerous. In fact I ran 15 red lights this past week and no body was hurt. Therefore running red lights is harmless. Try using that defense in court after running someone over.
About vaccine injured children, kids who react negatively to vaxxes is usually because of an allergic reaction or in rare case guillain barre. There is absolutely positively no evidence that vaxxes cause negative effects outside of what I already mentioned.
I may have said this in this thread or maybe it was another. We as people who suffer from cfs demand good, well established, evidence/fact based science. We cannot pick and choose which fields of well established, evidence/fact based science to believe in. It's seriously irresponsible.
Wakefield is the vax equivalent of the PACE trial researchers. He is responsible for the movement and the effects of the movement simply because of his negligence just like how the PACE people are responsible for all the people that ended up in worse shape because of that trial. We cannot be on the side of anti-science. And if you choose to be than you don't have a right to complain about the psychobabling morons who dismiss us as emotionally or psychologically disabled

 

[roller]

i dont think that nobody should speak up without proven and evaluated and verified evidence.
if there is anything suspicious, then particuarly the medical profession has to report asap.

to me it looks as ...
wakefield became a sort of a hero because his license was retracted.
for ages the vaccinaters were obviously unable to clarify the wakefield-issue to the public. this should have been easy, when they had to go against a single guy from somewhere having studied somewhere , practised elsewhere... a nobody, one would say.

perhaps, he also became a hero just because he dared to stand up against the machine...

blaming him sounds a bit as if 'until wakefield' medicine had been something good and trustful in the peoples mind.
obviously not.