• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Agmatine

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
I’ve used agmatine over the past 2-3 years mostly for bodybuilding (which I’ve given up), but have recently figured out it may have been playing a role in my treatment without knowing it, in regards to methylation and more. I’ve recently read it’s a nitric oxide synthase stimulator in blood vessels, but inhibitor in immune system and nervous system. It’s an NMDA antagonist and has some research in depression and anxiety.

It does several more things that are beneficial that I don’t understand quite yet, but I can post more as I learn.

Does anyone have any experience with it?
 

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
It’s an NMDA antagonist and has some research in depression and anxiety.
Does anyone have any experience with it?

The first time I took it, it brought me with a good feeling quit to a sleep for more than an hour, maybe almost for two.
Now I am on different days differently sensible to it. Sometimes I take 500mg with 1000mg GABA (which doesn´t cross through brain blood barrier well). I can feel if it may be a small help.


It has been demonstrated, that agmatine irreversible inhibits nNOS, and downregulates iNOS:
Halaris, Piletz et al. 2007 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927294

In my opinion this makes a lot of sence.
Nitric oxide is not only produced from NMDAR´s but induces them as well (positive feedback).
The well known guess is, that NMDR´s are the first step in neuroplasticity, making new synapses.
Now, for resolving NMDR´s, agmatine would be used.
 
Last edited:

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
Any idea what roles it may have in histamine intolerance and methylation?

There must be something good with the related histidine, which is able to help me. But I´m to slow with thinking, I havn´t grasped it yet, I only have red, histdine works for nerves (all over the brain) and the immunesytem.
 
Last edited:

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
cont.
In my opinion there is much to lot of turnover in making new synapses and resolving synapses. So this could have to do with methylation. (I think that this turnover - implicating to much actionpotential - is causing the symptoms.)
Furthermore, it has been shown that manganese changes the expression of iNOS (the production of nitric oxide from the immunesystem). I am in particular not shure to which amount a change of daily manganese uptake could be a problem for an ill person, who is producing a lot of that. But it realy could be an issue, couldn´t it?
I am not shure to which amount in general this could be of importants, but all over I experienced significantly betterings on the long run since I reduced manganese uptakes. Well, the situation remains still difficult (I´ve tried a thread on this topic.)
 
Last edited:

joejack102

Senior Member
Messages
133
I’ve used agmatine over the past 2-3 years mostly for bodybuilding (which I’ve given up)...

Does anyone have any experience with it?

Yes, and I have a negative experience with it. Abdominal pain, and increased fatigue. I will never be using Agmatine again.
 

gumman123

Senior Member
Messages
103
I took it years ago, and experienced a benefit then stopped, and got sick, and could never remember what it was I took until recently. I have been eating banana skins lately, and feeling better, and it turns out they contain high levels of the other poly amines (spermine, spermidine, putrescine, google image polyamine pathway) so although I cant find studies where they check for it, banana skin would also contain agmatine. By looking at studies on agmatine and polyamine in foods not that many foods are high in it- two are- doenjang- a type of fermented soy bean sold at asian grocery shops, and fermented squid, which could be made at home by buying fresh squid from a bait shop, putting it in a jar then leaving it outside for 2-15 days which is how long it takes the agmatine producing bacteria that live on squid to make a lot of agmatine.

In rats most agmatine is in the stomach then intestines with 10 times less being in liver, kidneys, brains, heart. I cant find studies where they show the amount in humans but the amount of the other 3 polyamines is only 2-3 grams combined. It looks like we have less than 1 gram agmatine in the body maybe even less than 500mg, and we only make 10mg or so a day.

It is really important and one of the few supplements that actually does something however it is better to get it from banana skin, doenjang or squid.

It is not clear how we make it - argnine decarboyxlase is the enzyme to make it in plants, bacteria, and other mammals, and was thought to be the same in us however that idea seems to have been changed, and now genes involved in making it are claimed to be AZIN1, AZIN2, and some other ones that regulate the function ornithine decarboxylase. If someone knows who it all works feel free to comment.

I have been sick a long time, and think I have a KO mutation in whatever gene makes it in humans so I am going to eat banana skin, and doenjang for a while then try an agmatine sulfate supplement if they dont work.
 

gumman123

Senior Member
Messages
103
Just had 160mg agmatine sulftate, and it had a nice relaxing feeling right away. We make less than 100mg a day so only a small dose is needed not 1 gram like the body building websites or the sides of the container promotes.
 

gumman123

Senior Member
Messages
103
Nice I'd recommend it. I had about 450mg today. i take it sublingual and feel a calming effect as soon as I take it.
 

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
sublingual and feel a calming effect as soon as I take it.
The agmatine?

By accident I put a bit too much on my tong (when trying to figure out which powder was which)
and the tong on that patch got deaf!
It lasted for some weeks, moving [towards] the left tip of the tong.
 
Last edited:

gumman123

Senior Member
Messages
103
Yes agmatine.

Not sure what tong patch or deaf means. If you mean a patch on your tongue went deaf how does that happen ?
 

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
There are a two or three findings on agmatine, I currently cannot remember exactly,
but the most interesting says (Hilaris, Plietz et al 2007, link above)
that agmatine might be an endogenous NMDAR resolver (making these receptors vanishing).
in the brain.

Now it is/was not known if NMDR´s also occure in the PNS (not only in the CNS).
So my observation indicates that also in the PNS NMDR`s might take place.

For example: Blind people use their fingers for reading. How would the fingers get that sensitive?
The easy answere would be: Building up nerve connections by NMDAR´s. And they must be structured,
that means they would be all the time needed to be adjusted - some of them should be removed
(and this is what NMDAR´s are for, serving for nerve plasticity,
whereas the pure functioning of nerves relies on glutamate receptors).

So when I took the agmatine on the tonque, what might happen?
The nerve connections become weakend.
This is not wanted on my tonque.

In my brain though it seems to me that it is wanted!
 
Last edited:

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
@Iritu1021
here a promising publication about agmatine:


Evidence for Dietary Agmatine Sulfate Effectiveness in Neuropathies Associated with Painful Small Fiber Neuropathy. A Pilot Open-Label Consecutive Case Series Study


by Michael L. Rosenberg 1,*, Vahid Tohidi 1, Karna Sherwood 1, Sujoy Gayen 1, Rosina Medel 1 and Gad M. Gilad 2,*
1
JFK Neuroscience Institute, JFK Medical Center, 65 James Street, Edison, NJ 08820, USA
2
Research, Gilad&Gilad LLC, Henderson, NV 89015, USA
*
Published: 23 February 2020

Abstract
:
Peripheral neuropathies associated with painful small fiber neuropathy (SFN) are complex conditions, resistant to treatment with conventional medications. Previous clinical studies strongly support the use of dietary agmatine as a safe and effective treatment for neuropathic pain. Based on this evidence, we conducted an open-label consecutive case series study to evaluate the effectiveness of agmatine in neuropathies associated with painful SFN (Study Registry: ClinicalTrials.gov, System Identifier: NCT01524666).

Participants diagnosed with painful SFN and autonomic dysfunctions were treated with 2.67 g/day agmatine sulfate (AgmaSet® capsules containing G-Agmatine® brand of agmatine sulfate) for a period of 2 months.

Before the beginning (baseline) and at the end of the treatment period, participants answered the established 12-item neuropathic pain questionnaire specifically developed to distinguish symptoms associated with neuropathy and to quantify their severity.

Secondary outcomes included other treatment options and a safety assessment. Twelve patients were recruited, and 11 patients—8 diagnosed with diabetic neuropathy, two with idiopathic neuropathy and one with inflammatory neuropathy—completed the study.

All patients showed improvement in neuropathic pain to a varied extent. The average decrease in pain intensity was 26.0 rating points, corresponding to a 46.4% reduction in overall pain
(p < 0.00001).

The results suggest that dietary agmatine sulfate has a significant effect in reducing neuropathic pain intensity associated with painful SFN resistant to treatment with conventional neuropathic pain medications.

Larger randomized placebo-controlled studies are expected to establish agmatine sulfate as a preferred treatment.



1. Introduction

Pain is a strikingly prevalent symptom in our society. It has been estimated that 20.4% of American adults have chronic pain of various etiologies [1].

Approximately half of these people have neuropathic pain secondary to small fiber neuropathy (SFN) caused by damage of small diameter somatic nerve fibers, which carry pain and temperature information, and small autonomic fibers involved in regulating sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system functions (e.g., cardiovascular and sweat functions) [2].

This disorder is associated with many different types of neuropathy including metabolic, autoimmune, inflammatory, infectious and toxic etiologies, as well as with fibromyalgia [3].

One of the most common causes of peripheral neuropathy associated with SFN is diabetes mellitus. About half of the patients with diabetes mellitus develop peripheral neuropathy, and about one in three of these patients experience neuropathic pain [1,2]. Diagnosis in these patients is often missed as the neuropathy may precede clinical evidence of diabetes [4]. The mechanisms of diabetic neuropathic pain are still not fully clear, with both genetic and environmental factors involved [5].


Painful SFN is difficult to treat. Currently, the first line of treatment for neuropathic pain involves antidepressants such as serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), or tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) and anticonvulsants (such as gabapentin and pregabalin) [5,6,7,8].

However, overall, only about 50% pain relief is achieved in less than half of the patients treated with one of these agents, and many discontinue treatment within a few months due to poor tolerability [9,10,11,12], indicating the need for more effective treatments.

Topical therapies have had mixed results, but lidocaine, capsaicin and amitriptyline show promise [13]. Opioids have been used, but their use is controversial and may not be effective [14].

Because monotherapy in general is unsatisfactory, attempts were made to utilize combination therapies. Treatment with an anticonvulsant combined with an antidepressant, both at lower doses, may be more efficacious than either alone [15]. This also indicates that the combination treatment targets more mechanisms that may underlie the complex disease pathology [16].

There clearly is an urgent unmet need to develop safer and more effective therapies for neuropathies and neuropathic pain. To this end, we sought to assess the effectiveness of the neuroprotective dietary ingredient agmatine [17,18,19] in treating neuropathies associated with painful small fiber neuropathy.

Substantial preclinical evidence suggests the utility of agmatine in treating a wide spectrum of complex nervous system diseases [20,21]. Previous clinical trials showed that oral agmatine sulfate treatment is safe and effective in reducing neuropathic pain and improving health-related quality of life in lumbar disc-associated radiculopathy (sciatica) [22,23]. These clinical studies served as a proof-of-concept for using dietary agmatine as a nutraceutical for neuropathies.

Agmatine, decarboxylated arginine [(NH2(CH2)4NH2C(NH= )NH], is a ubiquitous molecule found in low amounts in a wide variety of plant-, fish- and animal-derived foodstuffs [24].

Additionally, gastrointestinal (GI) bacteria produce agmatine and the significant concentrations of agmatine found in the GI tract implicate microbial production as the main source of systemic agmatine [25,26].

Animal studies demonstrated that exogenous agmatine sulfate, the commonly used salt form of agmatine, is absorbed in the GI tract and then rapidly (within minutes) distributed throughout the body, including the brain [20]. In humans, ingested agmatine is readily absorbed and eliminated unmetabolized by the kidneys, with an apparent blood half-life of about 2 h [27].

Agmatine is principally metabolized into urea and putrescine, the diamine precursor of polyamines, which are essential for the viability of nerve cells [28]. Additionally, agmatine can also be oxidized, resulting in the formation of agmatine-aldehyde, which may be toxic and secreted by the kidneys [29]. This latter route is tissue specific, being significant in some tissues [26], but minor in others [30,31], and apparently negligible in the central nervous system [25].

It is postulated that, like a ‘molecular shotgun’, agmatine exerts its salutary effects by modulating multiple molecular targets including: several neurotransmitter receptors and receptor ionophores; key ionic channels and membrane transporters; nitric oxide (NO) formation; polyamine metabolism; protein ADP-ribosylation and hence signaling pathways; matrix metalloproteases (MMPs); enzymes implicated in nerve cell death and neuropathic pain; and advanced glycation end (AGE)-product formation, a process involved in the pathology of diabetes and neurodegenerative diseases [20].

Conceivably, agmatine may modulate its molecular targets both at the peripheral and the central nervous system levels.

A concerning caveat of the previous clinical trials was that after the short two-week treatment period, the effectiveness of agmatine treatment gradually dissipated [23]. This suggested that treatment should continue for as long as symptoms persist.
Reports from hundreds of people who use agmatine sulfate treatment on their own cognizance (unpublished observations), support the implications of these clinical trials. Namely, the treatment is effective in alleviating symptoms in several types of neuropathy, including diabetic neuropathy and idiopathic neuropathy—which are known to involve small fiber pathology [3]—and that in order to maintain effectiveness, agmatine treatment must continue for as long as symptoms persist.

Therefore, in the present study, we set up a study to assess the effectiveness of a two-month long oral agmatine sulfate treatment for patients diagnosed with neuropathies associated with painful SFN.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
@pattismith
sorry for the delayed response, just saw that... hope you and your family are safe in these crazy times!
Thank you for reminding me of agmatine, it's a supplement I have at home and I need to experiment with it more.

I've dealt with two herniated disks last year and I've realized that my neuropathic pain was all actually related to my cervical and lumbar spine problems (stenosis and multiple herniated discs, maybe some laxity). I now believe that even my throat pain is the cervical neuropathic manifestation, while the choking sensation I used to attribute to thyroid swelling is, in fact, a muscle spasm.

The sensory pain amplification and the subjective quality of pain do seem to depend on the balance of iron vs calcium, and T3 vs T4. Iron and T3 swing the pendulum toward neuropathic pain while T4 and Ca2+ toward muscle pain. I'm still learning to walk the fine line to balance those symptoms based on subjective feelings but the gist of this realization has been absolutely transformative. Also doing gentle yoga and neck exercises are a huge help in the long run.
 
Last edited: