signs of a low copper deficiency?

[learner2life]

I have been stumped about some of the symptoms I have been having lately. When tested last sept my glutathione status was quite low. I started to add small amounts of liposomal glutathione for the next 3 months while continuing all of my other supplements. B- complex, b12, vit d,c,e.. ubiquinol etc. I honestly can't tell if I improved with the glutathione or not. A strange reaction has grown over the last couple of months where whenever I concentrate I instantly loose energy, get brainfog and get neuropathy in my lower legs. This ironically stopped once I started to take doxycycline but it is slowly on it's way back. It happens almost instanteously. When I take copper, that is the only thing that takes the fuzzy thinking away and gives me a burst of energy. Exactly like b12 did when I started taking it initially.
I don't take much copper at all, maybe 100 mcg and within 10 seconds I feel so much better. More energy, more alert, no brainfog, it helps the neuropathy. It doesn't last long. I am currently trying dog persons protocol. I imagine fueling the cytochrome enzymes would just present another blockage at another point in the krebs cycle, possibly some of the fmn's and fads.

I've been finding how the copper enzyme cytochrome c is involved with the production of myelin and also plays a role in the mitochondria generating atp.

Heres some links I thought were interesting.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/copper/index.html

http://metallo.scripps.edu/PROMISE/CUMAIN.html just a list of copper dependent enzymes.

So, first question.. Does anyone have symptoms like that?

Trying to make sense of this symptom I have.
Thanks
David

 

[Marlène]

Hi

I have confirmed copper deficiency (blood and tissue) and it gives me the same symptoms as too much copper
Google: My experience with cupperheads, Arltma

Taking extra copper doesn't give me the symptoms you explain but I haven't tried the glutathion either.

 

[nanonug]

If you suspect low copper, I think it would be a good idea to specifically test for serum copper and ceruloplasmin. I currently take around 10mg/day of copper. I do it mainly to support superoxide dismutase and diamine oxidase enzymes.

 

[merylg]

I'm also following Dog Person's ideas. A couple of things come to mind...surprisingly considering the state of my mind ...not sure about you...but I was supplementing way too much zinc...and also eating some high zinc foods like chocolate...
"Excessive absorption of zinc can suppress copper and iron absorption." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_toxicity

Another thing that comes to mind is the B2 (Riboflavin) stores we are rebuilding, along with adequate supply of B12 is leading to proper utilization of Iron to incorporate into hemoglobin in new red cells... and therefore less utilization of lead in Zinc Protoporphyrins. As this lead is released from breakdown of old red blood cells, the lead disrupts the energy production in the mitochondria.

There also has to be adequate Caeruloplasmin to bind and transport the copper.
I recently had an abdominal ultrasound which was informative. Then had tests that included Iron Studies (which were OK)
Caeruloplasmin 0.39 g/L (0.25 - 0.63)
Serum Copper 18 umol/L (12 - 22)

Alpha 1 Antitrypsin, IgG, ANA, ENA, Smooth Muscle Antibody, Hep B serology, Hep C serology, FBC, UEC, LFT, Random Glucose, Chol/Trig....all OK except for slightly raised ALP, AST & ALT...repeat in 3 mths time

 

[Mij]

My copper serum tests:

Copper 12.7 (ref range 10.0-27umo1/L)
Ceruloplasmin 206 (ref range 220-440 mg/L)

So if these are low you are alrealy 1/3 depleted since the serums test is not exactly accurate. Same with Magnesium, if it shows low in the blood you are already 1/3 depleted since only a small amount is found in blood.

I do have problems with low ferritin and I believe the imbalances are related. I don't experience the symptoms you describe.

 

[Marlène]

Have a look at this blog. Halfway the page you'll find the english translation

http://b12vitaminetekortpodium.blogspot.be/search?q=transferrine

 

[learner2life]

Well, I'm a little dismayed. I read some pretty scary articles about neuron damage in the spinal chord and demyelinization of the brain. Atleast I have made the connection now. I can order those tests from direct labs. I think I should include a ferritin test as well to see how my iron stores are. Honestly I am a little confused about which test to order the ferritin or the transferrin test but I think the ferritin test is the right one. Also the copper should help with binding excess iron from the ceruloplasmin and make things a little easier ROS wise. Not to mention with SOD as well.

I assume it would be best to titrate up with the copper to higher doses as opposed to jumping in head first.

Nanonug.. I think it is a good idea to supplement with it if you have a high oxidative burden. Of course it may not be best for everyone.

Thanks for all the responses.
David

 

[Marlène]

@ learner2life

lecithin is an excellent supplement to protect against demyelinization.
Myy ferritin is ok but my transferrin is too low for many years. A long time before the copper defiency became apparent.

 

[Mij]

Searching through my test results on Iron Metabolism, my TIBC is within low/normal range, unbound iron binding capacity (UIBC) is right on the line normal. The total iron binding capacity as well as unbound iron binding capacity reflect the portion of possible unbound iron in circulation and are an indicator of protein malnutrition.

I took digestive enzymes years ago and my iron levels went up on their own, so seems absorption problems is an issue. I stopped taking iron and copper and have been eating eat raw organic unpateurized sauerkraut and feel much improved as far as my muscles getting more oxygen. I'm seeing my doctor in September to have my copper and ferritin levels retested.

 

[learner2life]

Mij, that's great the enzymes help it.

Marlene, that is what I have been wondering too. The transferritin being low from low copper. I also read from Christine, that the damaged ER structures wouldn't release copper from the liver and when a person supplemented with copper. Manganese was also used to help build the carrier proteins, furthering a deficiency. Don't know if she is refering to ceruloplasmin or not.

If copper is linked with so many neuron functions then it would seem that potassium would go down if one added quite a bit right off the bat.

 

[Marlène]

@ mij

what digestive enzymes did you take? sounds good!

 

[triffid113]

Copper is an acute phase reactant which means your body steals copper out of the tissues for all sorts of reasons...including taking OTC drugs like laxatives, inflammation, hormone changes, infections, etc. Thus a serumn copper test is pretty useless for determining copper status and they are only seriously considering it for detecting cancer (elevated serum copper only indicates inflammation). Of course if serum copper is LOW you are SERIOUSLY low because it has robbed the tissues and there is none to rob!

Low copper causes aneurisms because copper is required for the enzyme lysl oxidase which is required for cross-linking of collagen. Without cross linking, skin is very weak and easily ruptured (and your blood vessels are skin). For me, low copper showed up as crepey skin on my neck (they call it turkey neck I believe which shows it is common, but people do not realise it is serious!). (I only had that a short time before I corrected it). It also can cause slow wound healing as it did for me. Copper is a cofactor of one of the methylation enzymes (I forget which one) so copper deficiency will look JUST LIKE B12 DEFICIENCY and has been known to cause neuropathy and inability to walk (it has also been known to be caused by too much zinc). Your hormones help you absorb copper so it is not uncommon to become deficient after your hormones wane, especially if you avoid the fatty foods that are a source of copper, such as chocolate. John Johnson got a bunch of hyperthyroids together and everyone ran a bunch of tests to find out what deficiencies they had in common...they all had copper deficiencies so he theorized that copper is required to turn off the thyroid. He reports at www.ithyroid.com. Methyls are required to turn on/off chemical reactions so the way that copper affects the thyroid may be via disrupting methylation (just a thought).

Copper is also required for ZnCuSOD, a cellular antioxidant important to maintaining eyesight. It has many other uses. But at a borderline deficiency you will prolly only see crepey skin and slow wound healing. Copper deficiency is reputed to make your hair lose color. At iherb, someone commented on one of the copper supplements that when she and her husband took it, it got rid of the grey and when they stopped the grey came back.

Triff

 

[paleopup]

Hey,

Don't know if there's a better place to post this, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

My fiancee is paleo, 23 years old. She has pyroluria and has been taking B6 (P5P) and zinc for a little over a year now, symptoms in general have cleared up. Around November 2014, she increased her dosage of both to about twice what she usually takes, as she was experiencing high levels of stress. I know that her zinc levels were at 100mg/day. Around January, she felt a little weird but figured it was a fluke. Two months ago, she started feeling just overall really horrible. About 2-3 wks ago she started to have crackling in her joints, crunching especially around hands, feet, neck/jaw, and elbows. It was around this time that we suspected she might have overdosed on zinc, and resulted in a copper deficiency. She stopped taking all zinc, still takes B6 P-5-P once a day, usually 2 tsp of "Natural Calm Magnesium supplement" a day, handful of liver here and there, collagen supplements, and she has started trying to take copper supplements (copper gluconate, 2mg/day).

Though she says she feels less crackly/crunchy overall since stopping zinc and adding copper, she says that the copper makes her feel more sore, especially in her feet and deep in her legs. She says that she feels bad when she takes the copper, like maybe she ought not to add more or increase her dose. She has been fatigued and sore and generally feeling crappy. I'm worried and not sure what to do; I have done plenty of research on copper deficiency in the past few days, but am not especially familiar with vitamin/mineral supplementation. I am concerned because I cannot find any definitive actions that we ought to be taking; I worry about her ceasing copper supplements, but I don't want her to become copper toxic either. She has had problems with copper toxicity in the past (several years ago, long since cleared up) but I don't thin that would come into play now.



My question is: does this sound like copper deficiency? If so, what course of action should we pursue? Is there anything else that it could be? Anything I may have overlooked, ought to look into? ANY insight that you could provide would be infinitely appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Victronix]

Have you looked at her levels for all the other nutrients?

Feeling fatigued and sore could be a deficiency in magnesium, iron, thyroid, or a combination, or other things. For me, cracking of joints, etc. was the start of peri-menopause, so it can be hormonal in some way -- estrogen is described as the oil for our joints. Tight muscles can be due to all of the above too - iron, magnesium, thyroid, etc.

I'd say consider a wider net in your search.

Sometimes nutrient testing can help.

 

[starstern]

been taking each day 4000 mg pureway vitamin c for years ,does that lead to copper deficiency ?

 

[lift]

I have pyroluria too, not exactly convinced its a real condition. Anyway, I always end up feeling bad after a while when taking zinc, B6, vitamin C or anything else that antagonizes copper. And the feeling only goes away once I take a low dose copper, in fact the symptoms alleviate rapidly. Sometimes I can feel better, cog fog clears up and I get more energy. I still haven't figured out copper though, it never seems to do much more with continued supplementation and with higher doses, and can in fact make me feel worse. I'm not sure if its a herx or copper overload.

There was another guy on here that had the same experience as me. He could take a small amount like 150mcg and get an energy boost from it. Just to put it in perspective, most copper supplements are 2-3mg. So I open a capsule and remove 90% of the contents. The most I have taken at one time is 1mg and I felt weird after that. I think your fiancee should try a lower dose of copper.

 

[rippe]

Hey,

Don't know if there's a better place to post this, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

My fiancee is paleo, 23 years old. She has pyroluria and has been taking B6 (P5P) and zinc for a little over a year now, symptoms in general have cleared up. Around November 2014, she increased her dosage of both to about twice what she usually takes, as she was experiencing high levels of stress. I know that her zinc levels were at 100mg/day. Around January, she felt a little weird but figured it was a fluke. Two months ago, she started feeling just overall really horrible. About 2-3 wks ago she started to have crackling in her joints, crunching especially around hands, feet, neck/jaw, and elbows. It was around this time that we suspected she might have overdosed on zinc, and resulted in a copper deficiency. She stopped taking all zinc, still takes B6 P-5-P once a day, usually 2 tsp of "Natural Calm Magnesium supplement" a day, handful of liver here and there, collagen supplements, and she has started trying to take copper supplements (copper gluconate, 2mg/day).

Though she says she feels less crackly/crunchy overall since stopping zinc and adding copper, she says that the copper makes her feel more sore, especially in her feet and deep in her legs. She says that she feels bad when she takes the copper, like maybe she ought not to add more or increase her dose. She has been fatigued and sore and generally feeling crappy. I'm worried and not sure what to do; I have done plenty of research on copper deficiency in the past few days, but am not especially familiar with vitamin/mineral supplementation. I am concerned because I cannot find any definitive actions that we ought to be taking; I worry about her ceasing copper supplements, but I don't want her to become copper toxic either. She has had problems with copper toxicity in the past (several years ago, long since cleared up) but I don't thin that would come into play now.



My question is: does this sound like copper deficiency? If so, what course of action should we pursue? Is there anything else that it could be? Anything I may have overlooked, ought to look into? ANY insight that you could provide would be infinitely appreciated.

Thank you.

at about 48 minutes into this interview Morley Robbins tells about the interrelation between copper and pyroluria…

I would try retinol (cod liver oil) as he sometimes recommends to increase ceruloplasmin.
.

 

[CCC]

Rough paraphrase transcript of the bits that interest me and match our observed symptoms:

things that cause problems with copper
- ascorbic acid (min 43) - supplement form causes Cu problems. Natural Vit C in food has enzymes that gives body access to 5 Cu ions in a vitamin C molecule
- high fructose corn syrup - prevents production of ceruloplasm (Cu unusable)
- Fe supplements - prevents production of ceruloplasm
- smoking (cadmium)
- mercury and aluminum - disrupts Cu-Zn SOD (2 forms are Cu dependent, a 3rd in the mitochondria is Mn dependent)

Need copper for SOD and indirectly essential for catalayse (needs Fe) and glutathione peroxidase (needs Se and Mg, but doesn't work as well in a Cu deficient body)
Fe is only as only as good as the Cu.

So copper is the workhorse that prevent 'rust' (oxidation) in the body.

Haem production (using iron) works only if Cu is available. If insufficient copper, then Zn and B6 lost from the body. So treating with Zn and B6 supplements is treating a symptom, not the cause.

(He didn't mention copper toxicity in this - but that's not an issue for us)

When people are short of bioavailable copper, they won't make enough dopamine, leading to cravings for sugar and alcohol to boost dopamine.

He seems to advocate food sources above supplements.

EDIT: did this twice because I thought I'd lost the post, but no, it was on the other copper thread!

 

[SunnySky]

Recommendation: Get a B6 lab.
Could be B6 toxicity. She needs to have her B6 blood checked. I would do it before she stops supplementing as it quickly returns to normal at the blood level when the supplements are stopped. However, it is stored in the muscles and the nerve damage takes a while to heal.

 

[SunnySky]

Hey,

Don't know if there's a better place to post this, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

My fiancee is paleo, 23 years old. She has pyroluria and has been taking B6 (P5P) and zinc for a little over a year now, symptoms in general have cleared up. Around November 2014, she increased her dosage of both to about twice what she usually takes, as she was experiencing high levels of stress. I know that her zinc levels were at 100mg/day. Around January, she felt a little weird but figured it was a fluke. Two months ago, she started feeling just overall really horrible. About 2-3 wks ago she started to have crackling in her joints, crunching especially around hands, feet, neck/jaw, and elbows. It was around this time that we suspected she might have overdosed on zinc, and resulted in a copper deficiency. She stopped taking all zinc, still takes B6 P-5-P once a day, usually 2 tsp of "Natural Calm Magnesium supplement" a day, handful of liver here and there, collagen supplements, and she has started trying to take copper supplements (copper gluconate, 2mg/day).

Though she says she feels less crackly/crunchy overall since stopping zinc and adding copper, she says that the copper makes her feel more sore, especially in her feet and deep in her legs. She says that she feels bad when she takes the copper, like maybe she ought not to add more or increase her dose. She has been fatigued and sore and generally feeling crappy. I'm worried and not sure what to do; I have done plenty of research on copper deficiency in the past few days, but am not especially familiar with vitamin/mineral supplementation. I am concerned because I cannot find any definitive actions that we ought to be taking; I worry about her ceasing copper supplements, but I don't want her to become copper toxic either. She has had problems with copper toxicity in the past (several years ago, long since cleared up) but I don't thin that would come into play now.



My question is: does this sound like copper deficiency? If so, what course of action should we pursue? Is there anything else that it could be? Anything I may have overlooked, ought to look into? ANY insight that you could provide would be infinitely appreciated.

Thank you.

I hear ya about the pyroluria and taking B6 (P5P) & zinc, BUT, here's a recommendation:

Get a B6 lab. This could be B6 toxicity. She needs to have her B6 blood checked. I would do it before she stops supplementing as it quickly returns to normal at the blood level when the supplements are stopped. However, it is stored in the muscles and the nerve damage takes a while to heal.

The US RDA for B6 is only 1.3 - 1.5 mg, and the B6 in many of the supplements is way beyond that. And eating Paleo offers plenty, too. An avocado has .5mg, so it's easy to get enough. Bananas and sunflower seeds/butter has a lot of B6.

There are some people with B6 toxicity that don't even take supplements. And most doctors believe B vitamins are all water soluble, but B6 is stored in muscle.

The toxicity symptoms vary...(and the following doesn't mean one has all or many of the symptoms---it's all different.)
B6 toxicity symptoms from Mayo Clinic are: abnormal heart rhythms, acne, allergic reactions, breast enlargement or soreness, changes in folic acid levels, decreased muscle tone, drowsiness or sedation, feeling of a lump in the throat, feeling of tingling on the skin, headace, heartburn, loss of appetite, nausea, rash, recurrence of ulcerative colitis (IBD), stomach discomfort or pain, sun sensitivity, vomiting, and worsened asthma. It also may cause low blood pressure, affect blood sugar levels, increases the risk of bleeding. We have other symptoms. The one that is most bothersome to EVERYONE is brain fog. Luckily the brain fog starts disappearing quickly. Other symptoms include vertigo, dizziness, tingling or pain in the hands or feet (neuropathy is a very common B6 toxicity symptom).' http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/vitamin-b6/safety/hrb-20058788

Plus, muscle wasting/nerve damage: There is evidence that B6 toxicity causes muscle wasting with decreased muscle tone (it's hard to exercise). This evidence also shows that toxicity does cause severe nerve degeneration.

After looking at deficiency symptoms, I guessed it fit me, so used B6 with abandon. After all, I thought B vitamins were water soluble and harmless. With nb feet for four years and advising four doctors, three neurologists, and one rheumatologist, B6 was never tested. When I finally had the wherewithal to ask for the B6 lab test, I found out I was toxic. The toxicity symptoms are similar to deficiency symptoms. Live and learn.

It can take 2-3 years to recover from B6 toxicity, if ever. There can be permanent nerve damage.