B12, arsenic, and infrequent urine/iurine retention

[kday]

I know that I have posted this before in another thread, and I feel like a broken record since this has been going on for 7-8 months or so I think.

Anyway, I am still all alone on this one with no answers, and I am increasingly concerned.

My liver enzymes were high. I went on Alpha Lipoic Acid (does most the work) along with some other supplements, and my enzymes came back to normal, but my symptoms didn't stop.

So, I made my doctor order a ultrasound, and it came back with "heterogenic echotexture of the liver", "enlarged spleen" (mild), distended gallbladder (but not abnormal?). Overall impression by the radiologist was chronic liver disease. My doctor wasn't worried, but since my symptoms have been so persistent and consistent for so long, I am becoming increasingly worried.

When I got sick in 2008, I was on an arsenic contaminated well in Tahoe drinking tap water for a few years. I by no means think this is the cause of everything because all my biomarkers show otherwise and I had chronic lyme disease and my herxes (that word still bugs me) were out of this world. I had/have bartonella as well that is more or less under control now.

However, I feel that the infections are just about gone, and I am left with this potent toxin. Why do I think it's a toxin? When I take B12 plus everything else, I can go from feeling absolutely horrible to feeling fine. My urine concentrates to a dark yellow color (I am well aware what colors vitamins turn your pee. That's NOT it), and it becomes foamy.

So all of my symptoms are better when My liver/kidney function is impaired and I can't pee! I don't get it. This is the direct result of methylation. However, I can reverse the blockage with Alpha Lipoic Acid, but I will eventually crave more B12 or my nervous system will go nuts.

After many months of methylation and intense detox, I had blood levels of arsenic checked and they were 8 g/L. This is well within the LabCorp range, but I believe the range is designed for acute exposure, not chronic. Looking at literature, it's clear that such a value may represent chronic Arsenic poisoning. Freddd commented before and said that arsenic would be rapidly methylated I'm not so sure that that adds up in my case.

It is absolutely critical that I take the B12, and I can't go without it for more than a couple days. I had continuous methylation for a few months where I didn't need the supplements, but that stopped.

So, a couple things look plausible to me: Porphyrins and Arsenic toxicity. Perhaps it's just something like toxic porphyrins. I have hair and urine testing being ran now for metals to see if I can get a clearer picture. I have jumped states before any methylation, and I currently have no known sources of arsenic exposure besides the trace amounts that's in virtually all water. The amount of arsenic in my drinking water is negligible.

I feel left in the dark to figure this out on my own (I ordered my own tests), and I am lost.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I attached my info about arsenic below.

 

[kday]

Also, I have stabbing pain in my upper right quadrant sometimes. It doesn't last long. Usually it's in the morning after a meal, or evening. There is no pain when when I press and breath in on that area. I took Rocephin (which can kill the gallbladder), and if I look back, while I was taking it these strange issues started. However, the percussion sound of the liver/gallbladder area is dull when the weird symptoms are present, and hollow sounding when they are not.

I'm wondering if an infected gallbladder can cause urine issues. According to the ultrasound, it doesn't appear that I have stones. I'm not quite sure how all those ducts work and how fluid is routed.

I would also like to mention when I first got sick, I would have episodes and end up in the ER with 240/160 blood pressure. My blood pressure is ok now. I am 25, was highly active, and never had high blood pressure. All hormones were checked. Adrenal diseases were checked (including very rare ones). All adrenal and hormone tests at the time were smack in the middle of normal range.

Also, my serum ferritin is actually towards the low side so it's not hemochromatosis.

 

[aprilk1869]

I really have no expertise in this at all however have you looked at IV Alpha Lipoic Acid along with Low Dose Naltrexone? All I know is that Dr Burt Berkson has good results with these for various conditions including liver problems.

http://nolahepper.blogspot.com/2009/06/dr-burt-berkson-and-low-dose-naltrexone.html
http://www.honestmedicine.com/2009/...ne-about-his-work-with-alpha-lipoic-acid.html

 

[kday]

I really have no expertise in this at all however have you looked at IV Alpha Lipoic Acid along with Low Dose Naltrexone? All I know is that Dr Burt Berkson has good results with these for various conditions including liver problems.

http://nolahepper.blogspot.com/2009/06/dr-burt-berkson-and-low-dose-naltrexone.html
http://www.honestmedicine.com/2009/...ne-about-his-work-with-alpha-lipoic-acid.html

I never heard of IV ALA. Wonder how much better it is than oral ALA. I guess I will read, and if it looks worth it, I'll see if I can get my doctor to do it.
ALA is some powerful stuff. I take small doses frequently. Believe me, I would forget about it if it didn't work. I don't notice a difference from Milk Thistle, but I take it anyway. Maybe my enzymes appreciate it.

 

[kday]

I've been reading, and I found this part interesting (isn't there a glutathione depletion methylation cycle block in AIDS as well?):

Alpha lipoic acid has been found to be an effective inhibitor of HIV-1 virus replication. In cultured lymphoid T-cells, alpha lipoic acid was able to inhibit replication of the HIV virus and caused a 90% reduction in reverse transcriptase activity.176 Nuclear factor-kappa beta (NF-kappaB) is one of the cellular transcription factors involved in gene expression of the human immunodeficiency virus. A randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trial was done with 33 HIV-infected patients with a history of unresponsiveness to highly active antiretroviral treatment. They were given 900 milligrams of alpha lipoic acid per day or a placebo for 6 months. The glutathione level in the blood was significantly elevated after 6 months in the alpha lipoic acid- supplemented patients compared to insignificant changes in the patients taking the placebo. The lymphocyte proliferation response was significantly enhanced in the patients receiving alpha lipoic acid compared to the group taking a placebo. Alpha lipoic acid was found to have a positive impact on patients with HIV by restoring blood glutathione levels and improving the reactivity of lymphocytes to T-cell mitogens.177

http://www.getpurevitality.com/The_Uses_and_Benefits_of_Alpha_Lipoic_Acid.pdf

 

[Freddd]

I know that I have posted this before in another thread, and I feel like a broken record since this has been going on for 7-8 months or so I think.

Anyway, I am still all alone on this one with no answers, and I am increasingly concerned.

My liver enzymes were high. I went on Alpha Lipoic Acid (does most the work) along with some other supplements, and my enzymes came back to normal, but my symptoms didn't stop.

So, I made my doctor order a ultrasound, and it came back with "heterogenic echotexture of the liver", "enlarged spleen" (mild), distended gallbladder (but not abnormal?). Overall impression by the radiologist was chronic liver disease. My doctor wasn't worried, but since my symptoms have been so persistent and consistent for so long, I am becoming increasingly worried.

When I got sick in 2008, I was on an arsenic contaminated well in Tahoe drinking tap water for a few years. I by no means think this is the cause of everything because all my biomarkers show otherwise and I had chronic lyme disease and my herxes (that word still bugs me) were out of this world. I had/have bartonella as well that is more or less under control now.

However, I feel that the infections are just about gone, and I am left with this potent toxin. Why do I think it's a toxin? When I take B12 plus everything else, I can go from feeling absolutely horrible to feeling fine. My urine concentrates to a dark yellow color (I am well aware what colors vitamins turn your pee. That's NOT it), and it becomes foamy.

So all of my symptoms are better when My liver/kidney function is impaired and I can't pee! I don't get it. This is the direct result of methylation. However, I can reverse the blockage with Alpha Lipoic Acid, but I will eventually crave more B12 or my nervous system will go nuts.

After many months of methylation and intense detox, I had blood levels of arsenic checked and they were 8 g/L. This is well within the LabCorp range, but I believe the range is designed for acute exposure, not chronic. Looking at literature, it's clear that such a value may represent chronic Arsenic poisoning. Freddd commented before and said that arsenic would be rapidly methylated I'm not so sure that that adds up in my case.

It is absolutely critical that I take the B12, and I can't go without it for more than a couple days. I had continuous methylation for a few months where I didn't need the supplements, but that stopped.

So, a couple things look plausible to me: Porphyrins and Arsenic toxicity. Perhaps it's just something like toxic porphyrins. I have hair and urine testing being ran now for metals to see if I can get a clearer picture. I have jumped states before any methylation, and I currently have no known sources of arsenic exposure besides the trace amounts that's in virtually all water. The amount of arsenic in my drinking water is negligible.

I feel left in the dark to figure this out on my own (I ordered my own tests), and I am lost.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I attached my info about arsenic below.

My urine concentrates to a dark yellow color (I am well aware what colors vitamins turn your pee. That's NOT it), and it becomes foamy.

Are you sure that it is concentrated? B12 and 2 b-right and maybe extra B1 will make it very dark yellow and look very concentrated except that it isn't. I've had foamy too and the only thing I can find that correlates with that is folate deficiency from various causes. Have you measured the volume?


It is absolutely critical that I take the B12, and I can't go without it for more than a couple days.

but I will eventually crave more B12 or my nervous system will go nuts.

What would make you think that it would be otherwise. That is pretty normal. By the third day I get return of symptoms starting no matter how much I took 3 days before. All that says is that your body has damage that needs continuous b12 to continue healing. There is no evidence that the body every returns to normal on this once certain damages occur. Clearly you have had nervous system damage from what you say. According to a doctor's report I was reading it take 5 years of continuous treatment without setback to heal the nervous system.

Ate you taking glutathione or NAC. This can cause a vastly greater and/or faster excretion of b12 from your body making for much darker urine. It also causes folate deficiency It also caused foamy urine for me but that might be the induced folate deficiency. Are you taking folic acid or folinic acid. This can also cause vastly greater and/or faster excretion of b12 from your body making for much darker urine as well as foamy urine.

 

[August59]

Hi Kday,

a couple of things that strike me as being familiar. I only pee 3 times a day and my total volume is usually between 900 - 1000 ml in 24 hour (I took a 24 hour urine cortisol test recently). My urine appears as you say highly concentrated and as you say looks different than vitamin urine. Mine will just about not mix with water in toilet as it very definitively sinks to the bottom and as you say looks as if there is dish soap in the toilet. Not sure if this is one of your symptoms as well, but mine has a very strong odor. It does not have a sweet or nutty odor, but could be just a strong ammonina odor.

I'm not taking any supplements right now and haven't for the last 4 - 5 weeks. I check my glucose about once a week and while my fasting is around 105, it never goes over 185 within 2 hours of eating. I'm due for extensive labwork, so I may know more then. Sorry that i'm not much help, but wanted to let you know that others are having your symptoms as well.

 

[kday]

In a (sick) way, it's comforting to see that somebody else experiences symptoms similar to mine.

Mine seem to be directly from B12. I resisted B12 for a few days and had a 20 mg of hydroxy IM today. I initially thought it didn't work, but it took a few hours, and I felt so much more relaxed. So relaxed that I forgot to take my afternoon and evening dose of benzos (that is in no way normal). Couldn't figure out why I started to get so anxious around now.

BUT, despite all the positiveness, this form still made me retain urine. I'm not sure if this was a good or bad thing, but based on my experienced with methylcobalamin and my liver I upped my alpha lipoic acid to pee it out, and after peeing all this fluid out, the great effects of the B12 wore off around the same time I was having benzo withdrawal.

I am considering ordering hydroxy B12 to inject at home instead of methyl. It works great. My doctor thinks it's safer since it is not a direct methyl donor (excuse me if I phrased that incorrectly, but I think you understand what I am trying to say).

And when I commented that I must be the only patient with this problem, he said, no, he has actually seen methylcobalamin negatively impact liver function on other patients with similar symptoms.

So my questions:

Is it possible that hydroxocobalamin safer than methylcobalamin (I know it can create methylmercury, but that's not what I am talking about)? I would assume so since it has to be converted into other forms?

Why are some reasons that both forms of B12 lessen all my symptoms to a great degree (neuro included)?

 

[Hip]

I believe that selenium supplementation aids arsenic detoxification. You can take up to 800 mcg of selenium a day.

 

[Freddd]

In a (sick) way, it's comforting to see that somebody else experiences symptoms similar to mine.

Mine seem to be directly from B12. I resisted B12 for a few days and had a 20 mg of hydroxy IM today. I initially thought it didn't work, but it took a few hours, and I felt so much more relaxed. So relaxed that I forgot to take my afternoon and evening dose of benzos (that is in no way normal). Couldn't figure out why I started to get so anxious around now.

BUT, despite all the positiveness, this form still made me retain urine. I'm not sure if this was a good or bad thing, but based on my experienced with methylcobalamin and my liver I upped my alpha lipoic acid to pee it out, and after peeing all this fluid out, the great effects of the B12 wore off around the same time I was having benzo withdrawal.

I am considering ordering hydroxy B12 to inject at home instead of methyl. It works great. My doctor thinks it's safer since it is not a direct methyl donor (excuse me if I phrased that incorrectly, but I think you understand what I am trying to say).

And when I commented that I must be the only patient with this problem, he said, no, he has actually seen methylcobalamin negatively impact liver function on other patients with similar symptoms.

So my questions:

Is it possible that hydroxocobalamin safer than methylcobalamin (I know it can create methylmercury, but that's not what I am talking about)? I would assume so since it has to be converted into other forms?

Why are some reasons that both forms of B12 lessen all my symptoms to a great degree (neuro included)?

Hi Kday,

Is it possible that hydroxocobalamin safer than methylcobalamin (I know it can create methylmercury, but that's not what I am talking about)? I would assume so since it has to be converted into other forms?

Why are some reasons that both forms of B12 lessen all my symptoms to a great degree

Some reactions are straight chemical reactions, such as all 3 forms except cyanocbl will combine with cyanide to form cyanocbl which is non-toxic and rapidly excreted. However, you are correct. Hydroxycbl is only biologically active after is is converted to methylb12 and hence to adenosylb12. There is a limited amount of conversion as far as is known, perhaps 30mcg/day. Hydroxycbl is a methyl consumer, a competitor for available methyl groups and in observation appears to lead to "methyl exhaustion" after some while in some people. However, most of that was in observation of hycbl with folic or folinic acid, not Metafolin which may have a different outcome. Once thing quite clear however is that hycbl is effective for about 1/3 of the symptoms for which adb12/mb12 are effective for and so some b12 deficiency symptoms continue to worsen even as others get better. Hycbl is documented at providing a limited amount of neurological effect and mb12 is documented as having a lot more neurological effectiveness.

As far as any danger of either of these forms of cobalamin it appears to be largely individual at levels that don't show up in studies.

he has actually seen methylcobalamin negatively impact liver function on other patients with similar symptoms.

I can't find any trace of such in the literature but haven't had time to look at all the references. Folic acid however may be so implicated from what I am reading. So if the mb12 he is referring to was with patients taking folic/folinic acid that might be the actual source of the problem. This whole folic/folinic acid thing sure does confound all sorts of things we think we might know.

 

[dannybex]

I believe that selenium supplementation aids arsenic detoxification. You can take up to 800 mcg of selenium a day.

I realize this is an ancient thread, but was wondering if you had some references or studies on that @Hip?

I thought that was true, but recently found some studies that make me wonder if selenium makes arsenic toxicity worse?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X01991343

http://gradworks.umi.com/34/72/3472891.html

???

 

[Hip]

I realize this is an ancient thread, but was wondering if you had some references or studies on that @Hip?

I thought that was true, but recently found some studies that make me wonder if selenium makes arsenic toxicity worse?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X01991343

http://gradworks.umi.com/34/72/3472891.html

???

That interesting, @dannybex.

I just Google searched PubMed for selenium and arsenic, and there are a number of studies that found selenium beneficial for mitigating the effects of arsenic exposure, so it's a bit confusing.

 

[dannybex]

Thanks @Hip -- yup, definitely confusing. I was taking selenium daily for years until about 2 months ago…not sure if it's worsened things or not. !!!

 

[Freddd]

Thanks @Hip -- yup, definitely confusing. I was taking selenium daily for years until about 2 months ago…not sure if it's worsened things or not. !!!

MeCbl removes arsenic from the body.