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Will be Ramping up MFolate/MB12 (need guidance)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Took a while but finally got through to me that one needs to do this to achieve any real healing. So with much trepidation here I go.

    I'm about to give this a shot. Not sure where I'll end up. I have a vague idea how to do this (Take more MFolate and MB12) not really sure about the supporting supplements. I know to be on the lookout for low potassium and I think Magnesium may get depleted also. I plan on taking my homemade b-complex (Freddd mentions that he's done this also) maybe twice per day and will spread my MFolate and MB12 dose throughout the day.

    I'd ideally love to see a flow chart of how to do this!

    In lieu of that any recommendations, contraindications or general advice in advance of my starting this are most welcome.
     
  2. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    One of my best resources in getting started with Freddd protocol is the document in my sig.

    If it helps reassure you at all, the doctors I've talked to have told me that these supplements are relatively safe. I know that for me there were lots of ups and downs until I figured out what I needed and found some semblance of steady state and, truly, I was scared -- I didn't have those reassurances when I started, just lots of online sources like this forum and my own research.

    The active b12s are incredibly safe to take, even at the high doses I'm taking (20mg sublinguals, nasal spray, etc).

    I started on 15mg of l-methylfolate, without anything else, and it was rocky times, for sure -- I dont' recommend that. Definitely do the b12s, too. But I did survive it. And it was worth it.

    Even potassium is far safer than people seem to think -- I know a doctor who tells me that if your kidneys are healthy it's almost impossible to overdose on it, and he didn't even blink at my 4 grams (GRAMS) a day.

    Also FWIW, this protocol has been one of the best things to ever happen to me. Ever. I am stunned and amazed at how much better I feel. I would be sorely tempted to go door to door with handouts and a big smile, saying "have you heard the good news about methylation?" :) :) :) -- if I felt I had a better grasp on the variances between people's reactions. But everyone has a different set of issues and problems and solutions.

    I wish I'd had the doctors I've found since, at the start, but I didn't. I had to be my own guide.

    Courage!
     
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  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    @aturtles,

    I saw on another thread you mention you ramped up pretty quick. How much did you increment by and when. Did the ration of your B12 to Mfolate stay the same during? Also did your consumption of AB12 and LCF rise also?

    What other supplements did you find necessary on your rise upward?

    I want to make sure I have plenty of whatever I need before I start. Do not want to run out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
  4. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    @sregan, yes, I ramped up as fast as I could. I followed Freddd's protocol as best I could, informed by all the other research I was also doing. But none of that at first. All I had going in was a prescription for Deplin-15.

    Answering your questions about what I did when, my ramp-up and symptoms, what I did to improve things as I went, the mistakes I made, the conclusions I drew, and all of what I'm taking now is a really REALLY long post. So -- as long as this one is, it's is a summary. :)

    The problem with discussing ratios of active B12 (only MeCbl & AdoCbl, to be clear) to L-MTHF is that MeCbl has a challenging absorption profile, so you can (as I did) take 20mg in oral mucosa (inside of lip, not tongue) and only get a fraction (10-25%) -- assuming the brand is good. If it's not good, you can get NOTHING. (Methylcobalimin is tricky stuff to work with -- it deteriorates very fast in light -- so it's entirely possible to get tabs that have no potency at all, and I have experienced those.) For MeCbl, I've used sublingual tabs of various brands, injections (SC & IM), nasal spray, and am now experimenting with inhaling (vaping) MeCbl. (Very exciting possibility.) My ratio did NOT stay the same, and I'm still trying to get my MeCbl up higher. (This is definitely an adventure.)

    My primary advice on supplementation: the Deadlock Quartet and potassium. (But as freddd says, anything can block you if you don't have enough of it.)

    My approach was to dive in at the deep end, partly because I was desperate, and partly because I was already in the deep end what with only taking 15mg L-MTHF, which dragged me through lots of interesting hells before I found the protocol. (There are many ways up this mountain.)

    This is a summary of my ramp up of the Deadlock Quartet. I looked for Freddd-recommended brands whenever possible (see Guide in sig.)

    Jul-20-14: L-MTHF 15mg (Deplin-15); in 4 doses/day
    Aug-10-14: MeCbl & AdoCbl, ramping up to 10mg/day each within days
    Aug-20-14: L-Carnatine Fumerate (LCF); my ramp up to 800mg/day took two months -- my stomach just wouldn't take it. I did finger-touch to mouth multiple times across the day to ramp up. Tried ALCAR for two days and it didn't work; went back to LCF.

    Co-factors, most of them within the first three week, ramping up slowly, esp with C, Calc/magn/zinc tab & Potassium:
    B-complex 2x (low niacin & no folic acid)
    Calc/magn/zinc: 2 tabs daily total 1gm/600/10
    C (500mg-1gm)
    O3FA (~2gm);
    E+D+A
    Potassium Gluconate & Citrate as needed; more Gluconate over time, now exclusively: total 3-5gms/day, away from L-MTHF
    For sleep, some combination of tryptophan, melitonin, gaba, valarian root extract, ashwaganda

    Disclaimer: I post here with this level of transparency to help others on the path who might benefit from my experiences, but my knowledge of the biochemistry of methylation has a long ways to go and many people here know things I don't. My protocol seems to be working for me, for now, but it may not work for you; there are great variences between people's needs and reactions to methylation work, due to genetics, history, age, damage, illness, and any number of other factors medical science has yet to put its grubby little fingers on. I know at least one person with similar methylation genetics to mine who has completely different symptoms. My advice: keep a log, review it often, and have courage; some of us here are healing dramatically from this work, and you might, too. To say "your mileage may vary" is an understatement, and this is one of the reasons I opted to follow Freddd's protocol, because it is more about results than theories that don't explain everyone. Methylation theory is only about 10 years old - a split second for medical science and research -- so most doctors don't know much about it, and even methylation experts disagree. I do not have all the answers, and advise you take with a grain of salt the advice of anyone who tells you they do. On the plus side, *all* the doctors I have talked to assure me that methylation work and the supplements involved are pretty safe and it's hard to go far wrong. That doesn't mean you won't have rocky reactions -- I sure did. For me getting better was the most important thing and I was willing to go through whatever it took to get there. Was I scared? Oh, very. Am I glad I took the risk? Oh, very.
     
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  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    @aturtles

    Thank you for the detail, very helpful! I had to look up O3FA to see it was Omega 3 Fatty Acids... lol. I had been taking Fish Oil but stopped recently. What is your source for that?

    I waited until I could get a decent supply of MB12 and MFolate in before I started. I've been taking 200mcg MFolate x 3 per day and about 1mg of MB12. Bumping up to 800 mcg mfolate today and will bump up the MB12 also. My AB12 intake has been a fraction of my MB12 (about half or 1/3). Do you usually take the same amount of AB12 and MB12?
     
  6. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    O3FA: I use Barlean's Omega Swirl, because it's actual fish oil, not seed oil, and my understanding is that matters. Also not in capsules, so I believe it's more cost effective. Were I you, I would at least take some daily. Here is the exact O3FA I use:

    http://www.amazon.com/Barleans-Orga...d=1415674312&sr=1-14&keywords=barlean's omega

    Re MeCbl/ AdoCbl ratios: I used to make sure the MeCbl and AdoCbl were in line with the Freddd protocol (see sig), but as I'm now on day 5 of inhaling my MeCbl (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-inhalation-therapy.33045/ -- I will report my findings in another 5 days or so) but still taking sublingual tabs for my AdoCbl, my ratios are unclear.
     
  7. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I'm up to 400 Jarrow Mthyl Folate 3 times per day. Taking 1/2 of the Enzymatic MB12 with each and about 250mcg of AB12.

    Been taking a small amount of B's in the morning. Shooting for 20mg of B1, B2, B3, p5p, Biotin and PABA. Also taking 1/2 of a 25mg Pantethine sublingual. Been taking Vigin coconut oil and probiotics (later) for the gut. Also take a Sunflower Lecithin every morning.

    Take some Mag/Glycinate and Potassium whenever I feel the need.

    Looking for what else I might add. Zinc I believe many are saying is good to supplement on this protocol

    Today based on something @Critterina said took one of my Tryptophan Capsules. Having a really good day. Been seeing an upswing in how I'm feeling. Hope it continues.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
    Critterina likes this.
  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    For those who have ramped up on MFolate and MB12 @aturtles @ahmo,

    How fast was your increment? Did you find that you were increasing from one day to the next?

    Also how much was your increment and did it stay the same throughout?
     
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan I increased by 200mcg increments, every day or two, depending upon my symptoms. I increased when I had insufficiency symptoms: hair loss, acne. Once I tried more, but it was too uncomfortable. The B12 didn't go up exactly in tandem. I use self-testing for dosages, and can't actually recall the rate at which my B12 increased. At times I got 'over-metyhlation' symptoms after increasing folate: weepy eyes, itchy, restless. I think these are probably histamine-related. At these times I took 1mg B12, which stopped the reactions. I sometimes, but not always, added this B12 to the next day's total.

    You might want to experiment from the outset w/ taking folate sublingually, tucked int your gums. This has decreased my need by > half: from 15mg, the dose I'd maintained for some months, to 5mg. Very thankful for that reduction in cost!! Yet my B12 need remains the same, 20mg. So altho the ratio sounds very different, clearly the better absorption w/o swallowing really boosts the effectiveness of folate. Also, I no longer eat any green veg, so no more interference from veg folinic, which had pushed me into very high doses of folate.
     
  10. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    @sregan , as I said above (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...mfolate-mb12-need-guidance.33368/#post-516647) I ramped up fast. Take a look again at my summary for details.

    Do keep in mind that MeCbl does not absorb at the listed dose of the tablet. So I was taking 10mg, but probably absorbing more like 200mcg. My current estimate (for me, for those brands) is an absorption of perhaps 1 or 2% -- much lower than I had previously thought. My changing estimation on efficacy is due to the relative and astonishing efficacy of vaping. I'll be offering a report on my experiences with vaping on that thread, in another week or so.
     
  11. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Wow 10mg yields only 200mcg??

    I"m very interested to hear about the vaping. Look forward to your post.
     
  12. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Interesting. I was getting itchy at one point which doesn't happen any more. But have gotten watery eyes from time to time and wasn't sure why.


    I was initially taking my folate under the lip then I thought I read Freddd saying it really didn't matter for folate. I'll give that a try sounds great. I'm also interested in the "vaping" that @aturtles talks about in this thread. Could potentially get really good absorption for B12 and other things.
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan I discounted the sublingual folate thing for a long time. but a recent post of Stridor made me rethink...maybe he mentioned money!:D My costs had gone up to almost $60/month, now 1/3 that cost:smug:

    I'm also preparing to vape...have gotten stuck on which device to go for, vape or nebulizer. I think I'll end up w/vape. the reports are very impressive. Alternatively, there's a strong contingent using B12 transdermal oils. I have less than a month's supply of tablets, need to make a decision soon. cheers:balloons:
     
  14. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @sregan - fyi, I just started Lovaza, which is Rx fish oil. I like it because no fishy taste/burps and no stomach upset, which were issues on non-rx fish oils for me... Also, I have great insurance right now, so I only pay $5 / month for it. The downside is that it contains soy.
     
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  15. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    @ahmo Let me know when you decide on the vape thing. Looks like it could be the next big thing. Reminds me of the movie Limitless if you've seen that where the russian guy tells Bradley Cooper's character he uses the drug in a solution then injects it to get maximum potency. Which is odd that Bradley's character wouldn't have though of that esp. since the drug makes you super smart! :p

    Also has a question for you about when you increased your MB12 and MFolate dose. Did you have symptoms of folate insufficiency and hence the boost? And how did you know 1/3 of the sublingual equaled 1 injested mfolate? Testing or just the way you felt?
     
  16. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Up to 2 x 400mcg mfolate per day and taking about 400mcg MB12 per 200mcg of mfolate. Taking AB12 about as much as mfolate. Doing pretty good. Taking Magnesium and Potassium as cofactors.

    Would like to hear from others as possible critical co-factors I should pay attention to.

    Also Starting to micro titrate in LCF.
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan You know there's a thread re inhaling B12:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-inhalation-therapy.33045/

    I'm still on the fence between inhalation and B12 transdermal oil.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/

    I asked my brother who's an inhalation therapist about whether to use vape or nebulizer. He's concerned re inhaling glycerine. It's in most of the flavored vape mixes, but there certainly hasn't been long enough to know how they might effect us. It seems that just due to circumstances and expediency, I'll be trying the oil before the inhalation. I hope it makes me super smart!

    In my initial trajectory of increasing folate, yes, I had distinct deficiency symptoms, so kept raising it accordingly. I increased the B12 by self-testing, as well as by matching the increase, to some degree, of the folate. But, as I posted on the thread from May, High Methylfolate Users, I eventually found that my super-high folate needs were due to vegetable folate blocking the Mfolate. I've found that I'm no longer to eat any green veggies. If I do, it increases my need for folate. But more importantly, my adrenals get stressed. So they're something I've had to forgo :meh:

    Sublingual: When I switched from swallowing, I went into 'overmethylation'. Just checked my notes. After my first buccal dose, (probably 5 mg, 1/3 of my daily dose), 3 hours later notes say very speedy; 2 hours later: SO SPEEDY!!). I omitted my PM dose, so that brought my first day of buccal Mfolate to 10mg, from 15mg swallowing it the day before. 2 days later I decreased to 7mg.
    3 days later I had skin outbreaks, like folate deficiency, and increased to 8mg. Some days later I increased to 8.25, due to more symptoms. By 2 weeks later I decreased to 6mg, then to 5. For all the notes I keep, I don't have any clarity what was going on during this time, except for increasing adrenal stress. Maybe I was also still putting some lettuce in my juice. Not only sublingual (gums), but in PM I put my dose into footbath, and if I'm engaged in enemas, put the midday dose in the final one. So anything other than swallowing amplifies the potency.
     
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  18. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Yes I am recently aware of this thread

    This one is new to me thank you!

    The vape I was concerned the heat might somehow change the B12. The nebulizer looks promising if it doesn't take too long to injest the b12 that way

    Now that's good to know that veggie folate can block mfolate.

    Did you ever miss a dose or a day of doses for your mfolate and mb12. It seems that once you got your dosage way up if you missed a day because you didn't have your supps (ran out) you could crash almost immediately.
     
  19. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I'm starting to get some symptoms. Hard to tell if they are folate insuffienciency, or potassium. Yesterday my back hurt a lot and had some cramping in my calves. I believe it's an inflammatory response. From what I understand the best way to handle is to keep going up on the Mfolate?
     
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think it is balancing electrolytes first until cramping and inflammation subside!
     
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