1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Give ME the Money
Graham McPhee spells out some of the cold, hard facts about the dismal state of ME research and politics, and has some suggestions as to what we can do about it ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

How do you decide when it's time to increase methylB12,methylfolate

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by juniemarie, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    330
    Likes:
    104
    California
    I notice lately that people are not including the other Bs -- B1, B2, etc. and those can really be helpful in modulating the effects of methylation as well. Plus a multi-mineral or a calcium-magnesium.
     
  2. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    302
    Likes:
    82
    Albuquerque
    I take all of those but I'm not asking about when to increase them
     
  3. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    302
    Likes:
    82
    Albuquerque
    @whodathunkit Thanks for your reply. I will take a small amount of LCF and then just see how I respond. I will slowly increase it up to 500-800 mg to see if anything changes. I am better than I was but thought it odd that so far at least have not had any signs of symptoms listed on Fredd's list that would indicate more mfolate or potassium.
     
  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

    Messages:
    440
    Likes:
    267
    @juniemarie: well, you may be one of the lucky ones that doesn't have a problem, possibly because of all the legwork and stuff you've been through already.

    Or you could be one of the honeymooners that Caledonia mentioned. I had a little honeymoon period, myself (like one or two very good weeks) and then got really sick with the paradoxical deficiency. I had classic runny nose (really, really runny, never had a runny nose that bad before in my life), achy muscles, flu-like symptoms, etc. I then took a leap of faith and radically upped my folate dosage and was over it not more than a week later. Have been pretty good ever since. Am still tweaking some things and of course I have good days and some off days, but my exercise tolerance is increasing pretty quickly now and I'm much better than I was before I started Freddd's protocol. Even the off days are not as off.

    You probably already know this from your reading, but think it's worth mentioning: if you do get sick, that's when you need to decide how you want to handle it. I'm of Freddd's opinion that possibly more people could benefit by taking bigger doses of folate more quickly than many advise, but I don't have anything but my own experience and some anecdotal reading to support that. But probably there is no "evidence" to support this theory because nobody's bothered to study it yet. How to handle healing crises when taking methylfolate doesn't seem like a topic to interest many pharmaceutical companies or even government researchers.

    Also to consider is how intolerable your symptoms are if you do get sick. "Intolerable" being another relative term. If you can't bear the thought of things possibly getting worse before they get better then it's probably best to back of for a while and try again.

    IMHO it's got to be your decision, though, not what anyone urges you to do because it's what they believe is best. You will learn better what to do for yourself in the future by taking either course of action.

    FWIW, I advise sticking with half cap of LCF for a couple of weeks. It can be pretty potent. It can speed everything up, leaving you a bit (or a lot wired). If after couple of weeks you aren't getting an effect or everything is stable, then try upping it incrementally. Or if it makes you too speedy, quit for a while and try again. Carnitine is an essential part of the "Deadlock Quartet", in that you may not get the full benefit of methylation without some form of it (LCF or ALCAR), but it's not as essential as methylfolate and the B12's. My understanding is that you can make some progress without carnitine for a while, and also for a while without adenosylcobalamin, but not without methylfolate and at least methylcobalamin.
     
    juniemarie likes this.
  5. musicchick581

    musicchick581 Senior Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes:
    12
    So methyls cause potassium deficiency or do b vitamins cause that?
     
  6. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    302
    Likes:
    82
    Albuquerque
    @whodathunkit I was thrown off my supplement schedule today as I had a Dr. appt. very early. Its surprising how little one can do besides keeping up with and keeping track of the the methylation supplement schedule!
    I will admit I'm a bit spooked by the potassium thing. Its really hard to know if thats really whats happing.
    This morning woke up at 4 am(not normal for me) and could not get back to sleep had zipping pains in my finger and toe joints and labored breathing, restless. I'm thinking is this on the list of symptoms so get up and rummage around for Fredds list. Well it sort of was on the list but who knows. Went ahead and took 100 mg of potassium, yes I know from reading this forum thats peanuts. Don't know if it was my over active imagination but 20 mins later felt breathing relax and joint aches stop and I relaxed into sleep.
    I was bringing my Dr up to speed about the methylation protocol I'm following and when I got to the part about potassium she sat up straight and said be very very careful with potassium and went into a spiel about heart rhythms yadda yadda……….but it came on the heels of my being already nervous about taking it!
    So today dropped down to 500mcg of methyB12, 350mcg adB12 & 400 mcg mfolate.
    Next step will be to get back to where I was dosage wise about double what I took today and take a wee bit of LCF and since I normally take no potassium I think its ok for me to include 100 mg of it even before symptoms of needing more.
    Again I appreciate your helpfulness. Its hard figuring this stuff out and the worse one is feeling the harder it is to figure it out.
     
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @juniemarie I've been sort of following this conversation. Don't let this Dr spook you.I think when MDs talk about K+ they've probably got IV potassium in the back of their minds. There, it's critically important to not overdo. We're in a different game here. And there is a growing base of experience to add to Freddd's contributions, as we all run into these low K+ issues and supplement to overcome them. I'm taking about 1 gm AM/PM in a typical day, without stress or detox. I frequently have to add a dose of 3 gm K+ Gluconate when I increase folate. Usually this need does not carry over into the next day.

    I've also been doing what has evolved into a very extensive/intensive coffee enema detox. As it evolved, I began adding in more things to my final water enema to counteract the die-off symptoms I was having. I think an MD would faint if they knew about the K+, mg, and other things I'm adding, including chlorella! But I'm getting better, the die-off effects are getting less, I'm needing less supps to cope w/ the die-off. In the words of a wise one, Truth is what works. Best to you, ahmo:balloons:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
    juniemarie and whodathunkit like this.
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    PS: I'm a strong advocate of self-testing. Caledonia links a vid in her Methylation Made Easy. This is how I've inched my way forward, step by step. Getting healthier and healthier.:)
     
    juniemarie likes this.
  9. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    302
    Likes:
    82
    Albuquerque
    @ahmo you better believe I've had my eye on your progress…….your a methylation super hero in my book! 9-21 mg of methylb12?? Are you really taking that much? So you have to take 21 Enzy tabs a day??? How can you even afford that LOL I don't think I can afford to get well haha Is there something I'm not understanding? Which is very possible…..I was using the methylfolate as a sublingual before the lightbulb went off in my head and I finally got it.
    Ive seen the high does many of you take of potassium so I know my nervousness is irrational.
    How right you are What works, thats the name of the game
     
    whodathunkit and ahmo like this.
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    hey juniemarie...:) As of today I'm at 28 mg B12, 22mg folate. I'm using CountryLife 5 mg, as endorsed by Freddd, and the smaller amts Enzy. Afford....don't even ask!! During this detox period I'm underwriting iherb. If I was still a US citizen, unable to get a disability pension, I would not be alive now. GBless Aussieland!:angel:
     
  11. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

    Messages:
    302
    Likes:
    82
    Albuquerque
    @ahmo I hear ya I'm on very intimate terms with iherb did you use to be a US citizen?
     
  12. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    Yes, I'm officially a dual-cit, but no longer have a US passport or ties. Here 25 years, celebrating Australian tea ceremonies w/ my furry and feathered friends, as you can see ;)
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    CORRECTION:redface: Oh dear, in my typically number illiteracy, I have mis-spoken. I'm going to try to find all the other places I've done this as well...

    Not for the first time I've read the NOW K+ Gluconate label incorrectly. 3 gm is the amount of substance in the 1 tsp I frequently need when I've added folate. HOWEVER, that yields 540 mg potassium. The amount I'm generally needing in my AM/PM doses, aside from folate additions, is 800mg AM/PM. My bad.:whistle:
     
  14. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes:
    160
    Southeast
    I've been reading these posts regarding high folate use. Congrats Ahmo on your success!! Very inspirational and encouraging for everyone!

    I started again about 7 days ago with all 4 deadlock quartet supps. Just taking a small amount of MB12 and FolaPro (like 50mg each).

    Your post has me curious. I know you have done a lot of experimentation with your dosages. You're taking just a little more than a 4:3 ratio of B12:Folate.

    How did you come to this ratio?

    I've read in the past (but apparently didn't understand) about Methly-Block and donut hole folate insufficiency. I didn't realize that it was "folic acid" (and perhaps folinic) blocking the folate receptors causing the donut insufficiency. I also understand there needs to be enough MB12 to recycle the folate. If not then you get into a trapping situation. (do I have this right?) Those of us trying to operate with brain fog are at a severe disadvantage :(

    I uderstand there are signs to look for regarding low potassium and folate. So increase when you discover those. Now low folate also seems to possibly be a function of MB12 intake? Not taking enough folate and not taking enough B12 with the folate?

    If there a low B12 symptom? Or you have low folate symptoms and first up the B12 to see if that fixes. If not then up the folate?
     
    helen1 likes this.
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,430
    Likes:
    1,024
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @sregan I'm currently taking 15mg Mfolate, 20mg MB12, 3.3mg AdB12. I discovered that the veggies I was eating were blocking the Mfolate w/ folinic, which I can't metabolize. When I abruptly stopped the veg, I went into a galloping detox phase. I was able to dromp my Mfolate from 25mg to 15mg, w/ no deficiency symptoms. Indeed, in the midst of that detoxxing, I went w/o folate for 1-2 days at a time, w/ no deficiency sx.

    I arrive at my dosages by self-testing. It's how I've made my progress throughout this protocol. I've been using this method since my illness began, so I've developed a good confidence in it. It's helped me far more than any lab tests. Also, when I've increased Folate doses and experienced symptoms from that (agitation, restlessness, itchiness, weepy eyes) ie, *over-methylation*, I've taken 1mg B12 and eliminated these symptoms almost immediately. I then ask my body the following day if it wants to add this B12 to my total, or if this was just a one-time increase.

    I'm not sure. Here are some things from Freddd, maybe your answer is in here. I'm a bit foggy just now myself, feel there's a better response to you that I can't quite muster.o_O

    Also
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...uartet-and-other-nutrients.27482/#post-421506
     
  16. Leon

    Leon

    Messages:
    59
    Likes:
    12
    @minkeygirl: I think you really might have helped me out here.

    I haven't been able to stop urinating for the past few days, 8-days into methylation (hB12/methylfolate). My muscles are always twitching, and seem to improve with salt. I did increase my potassium to 300 measly-mg per day in tablet form just in case, however. It may not have been enough!
     
  17. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes:
    723
    Ventura, CA
    try 3000 lol, you need at least 4000mg a day. never take more then 1000mg in one sitting though. This includes diet and supplementation combined but Fred says usually people need a bit more from increased demand so high potassium diet and powder form potassium of at least 3000mg spread through the day can help, provided you have doctors approval first.
     
  18. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

    Messages:
    330
    Likes:
    104
    California
    I used potassium gluconate powder, which never hurt my stomach. You just mix it in water and add a little juice and take it with a banana or something. If you don't take enough potassium you will really suffer, but I know all about the resistance to taking potassium, and it's totally understandable. A powder form is the easiest on your body.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page