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Glutathione: Pro / Con arguments confuse me!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jorlev, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    In Rich's explanation he mentioned 3 groups. It's not just about you. For those in the first group, glutathione will actually protect B12. It's true that Rich's explanation regarding you is theoretical. We don't know why this happens to some people, but it doesn't happen to everyone. I agree that NAC and glutathione probably aren't the best ways to raise glutathione even if they don't remove B12 from an individual's body. We don't know how prevalent this is so maybe you're right that to be on the safe side everyone should avoid NAC and glutathione. I just wanted to point out that it doesn't happen to everyone. What you say about this and what Rich say are both theoretical and we really don't know exactly what's going on or how prevalent it is. Glutathione, NAC, and non-denatured whey were used for a period of time because they seemed to be helping a significant number of individuals. Although Rich and Dr. Cheney among many others discarded the treatment eventually since it seemed to only provide a temporary benefit, enough people didn't have an adverse reaction or the treatment would have been discontinued immediately.

    That said, raising glutathione is very important and it would be a mistake for anyone reading this to assume that glutathione in general is bad. It's seems raising glutathione via NAC, L-Cysteine, L-Glutathione, and non-denatured whey could have deleterious effects on some individuals. However, improving mitochondrial function and getting the Krebs Cycle going will also raise glutathione and many of the supplements in your protocol do just that. When glutathione is depleted that causes B12 to become depleted. And as I mentioned before one of the main purposes of methylation is to raise glutathione. Some of the people here seem to be confused about glutathione so this stuff needs to be made clear.
  2. serg1942

    serg1942 Senior Member

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    Dear Freddd,

    Please, be more respectful with someone who devoted his whole life to us, for no money and for no reward other than the satisfaction of trying to help others who are in deep pain.

    Of course you can completely disagree with his work, but you can do it by expressing yourself politely, and showing at least a bit of the self-respect and dignity he always showed.

    I won't reply more here, so do not waste your time in replying . But please, and I'm asking from the bottom of my heart, respect Rich, especially now that he is not here to defend himself. Focus on science, and behave as the professional you try to be (I'm sure you can do this).

    Sergio
  3. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus97,

    Thanks for the reply and the link - I did read what Rich wrote about glutathione and b12. I haven't been on mb12 long enough to know which of those 3 categories I fall into.

    I understand NAC may or may not have an effect on b12. However, NAC doesn't need remain a staple of my regimen - I have no measurable evidence that it's helped me. I've been taking it for a year now and could probably stand for a break. Hopefully, as you said, raising methylation will raise my glutathione, as well as ameliorating some of my other issues.
  4. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd, thanks for the reply.

    I'm new here, obviously. I posted about my issues and my SNPs over on the Genetic testing forum. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ion-snps-your-help-greatly-appreciated.21983/

    Google scholar aside, I did read somewhere (Chris Kresser maybe? I can't find it now unfortunately) that was essentially agreeing with you about potential neurological damage from an abundance of glutathione in the brain via supplements. In addition, it is a potent chelator, and I've wondered about it robbing me of minerals. I should probably find out what my Zn:Cu ratio is. Anyway, I started taking NAC because it is "glutamatergic" and is supposed to help reduce OCD and NMDA/wired but tired issues. Whether it actually did I can't say - the effect is subtle and could be attributed to placebo for all I know. Since finding out I have a mutation in MTHFR and related SNPs I'm taking a new course of action, and if it requires taking a break from NAC, that's alright.
  5. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    I didn't know Rich had passed until just recently. I was shocked and sad. His formula helped me tremendously and he obviosly cared deeply about helping our community. I've talked and read up on his relationship with other reaserachers who all say the same. I even stumbled upon a doc in the Bay Area (Kunin) who knew him well and held him in high esteem. Rich voluntarily helped me by phone and email with the obvious motive of truly caring about my well being. I will miss him. I never once felt his motivation was other than true care and concern.

    I could not take the straight G until I had been on Rich's protocol for several months. At that point I used the Liposomal G.
    Valentijn, Dreambirdie and Lotus97 like this.
  6. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    Well, just got some test results in. I am MTHFR A1298C homozygous, negative for C677T. This has apparently been linked to neurological disorders and high NO and peroxinitrite. Also Blood tests showed low levels of Carnitine.

    From my readings elsewhere, I don't know that having reduced G is the best thing to have even if there's a B12 depletion issue. Seem that G is a beneficial element in the body and since I have the A1298C mutation I may have less of it than I should. Don't know that I want to supplement with NAC till I discuss it with Dr., but this issue bares further investigation.

    Also, it seems A1298C may not require as much methyfolate at C677T does. My issue may be BH4 deficiency and the recently discovered Carnitine issue more than B12s and methylfolate. Hope at some point we can reach a consensus on glutathione. Perhaps I can get my levels tested.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    What Freddd was saying was that taking glutathione or NAC to raise glutathione can potentially cause problems in some people. Other methods of raising glutathione are quite beneficial and necessary. Methylation, Krebs cycle, ATP, and mitochondrial support are all very good ways to raise glutathione.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Lotus,

    I can agree 100%. There can be excess glutathione. When the body's systems are working correctly glutathione gets made to sufficiency without the risk of overdoing it. There is a delicate balance. It's excess glutathione that is a problem.
  9. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Hi all,

    I belive we will see that polymorphisms in the GST genes are quite common among people with ME/CFS who has problem with recovery . I have, so far, seen gene test results (Genovations DetoxiGenomics) from five sick people and they all had some , or many, polymorphisms among the GST genes which might decrease the capacity to conjugate with glutathione.
    Maybe these people are those who don´t tolerate supplementing with glutathione or precursors?
    (There are some studies on PubMed discussing these polymorphisms and how they relate to mercury burden in the body.)

    Four of them also had the Comprehensive Methylation Panel from Yasko confirming polymorphisms in the methylation cycle.

    So, first they probably can´t make enough glutathione (two of them stated in a Methylation Panel from Vitamindiagnostics), and second they can´t make use of it even if they succeed to increase the glutathione. As far as I know there are no supplements that can compensate for the GST polymorphisms. Anyone who knows?

    I talked to Rich about this when he visited Sweden, and he got the test results to study. He agreed to this kind of "worst case" for us.

    Helen
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Helen,

    Very interesting. Can you tell me as broadly and specifically as possible all the symtpoms and signs that are affected in various ways by which supplements and which symptoms and signs are NOT helped. Perhaps I could offer some possibilites of what might work for the unhelped or little helped. The larger/better the list, potentially the better correseponding list ofthings that might be predicted to help. They have to be on the list of symptoms in the Active B12 protocol Basics. Is there a video of Rich's or a specific papaer that addresses this?
  11. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    Thanks for offering help! But all of them have had amalgam fillings that gives a mercury burden though the fillings have been removed long time ago, as you probably know. All kinds of detoxification protocols could be harmful/dangerous according to a professor and specialist in GST polymorphisms as the glutathione binding capacity might be lowered. So the five women tested are all aware of this and act very carefully.

    In this thread the problem is discussed:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...release-stored-toxins-how-do-we-mop-up.15227/

    Without knowing your polymorphisms connected to methylation ability and polymorphisms in the GST genes you take greater risks when trying different supplements and protocols that might start detoxification . I hope the genome studies of 150 PWME´s at Mt Sinai Hospital will give a clue about the situation for PWME´s, at least as a group.

    Rich has discussed the problems with polymorphisms in GST genes in some inputs here on PR. I haven´t seen it in a paper or video from him. Maybe in the seminar from Sweden - I should know...

    I have found a few of the inputs
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/www.mecfs-vic.org.au/files/Article-RVK-InfoCoCure.pdf

    Rich:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...c-deficiencies-on-recovery.18865/#post-288708
    Rich:
    There is a lot of research to be done. I wish we didn´t have to be the guinea pigs, except in trials.

    Helen
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  12. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Tristen--Rich was incredibly generous and kind to our community. I miss him too.

    When you say "you could not take the straight G," what do you mean by that?

    I found the liposomal G to be ineffective, so I used the transdermal G for a while. Then I developed a rash to the cream, so I got the G nasal spray. I only use it when I have a heavy toxin burden. Do you use G regularly, or just intermittently?

    thanks in advance for your response.
  13. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Disturbing to see the paper work on Metanx, do know how I missed it the fist time except I was extremely ill and barely able to get out of bed. No excuse. Thanks for posting cause the supplier that seds it to me know does not provide paperwork or I cant recall seeing any. Will be discussing this with my Dr in a week.

    Good discussion guys, I never would have thought the Metanx (a vitamin) would maybe contributing to my symps.
  14. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    not sure I mentioned but Dr just recoed I go on Glutathione patch, I am fearful of taking anything anymore and it looks like the glutathione patch could be worse than the protien shake and Metanx reactions. It seems there is nothing I can take I dont react to, yet I know my body needs support, trying to provide it but comes back to bite me in the ass.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Roxie,

    I'm not understanding or maybe not remembering; what problems did you have on Metanx. Or is this in regard to the p5p? Many of the things we talk about here are vitamins and all three of those are usually very helpful vitamins with the other need cofactors.
  16. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    No, I haven't taken any Glutathione in any form for over 2 years now. My local GP (who is the only dedicated LLMD locally) is now on the biotoxins issue. She told me there was no point in attempting to clear toxins (as we have done in the past) without first looking into this issue. So we are doing just that.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Tristen
    Dreambirdie
    Since neither of you guys take glutathione regularly (or at all?) anymore you may or may not be interested in this answer. Plus I don't know for sure what the reason is, but Rich has given several reasons why taking glutathione at the beginning of methylation might not be a good idea for some people:
    (This is from mid 2012 so it's one of Rich's most recent posts about the subject)
    I was thinking about what Rich said about glutathione being converted into oxidized glutathione and I remembered the methylation study Rich and Dr. Nathan did. They measured the glutathione (GSH) and oxidized glutathione of the participants and the ratio improved significantly over the course of the study
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
    [​IMG]
    Tristen likes this.

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