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Possible effects of immune and detox genetic deficiencies on recovery

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    I’d like to comment on genetic deficiencies in the immune system and the detoxication system, and their possible influence on susceptibility to developing ME/CFS as well as their possible hindrance to recovering from ME/CFS.

    As many of you know, I have proposed the GD-MCB hypothesis for the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of ME/CFS. This hypothesis suggests that a variety of types of stressors can be involved in causing the onset of ME/CFS in a person who is genetically predisposed.

    The details of the genetic predisposition have not yet been completely elucidated. We know from a variety of types of evidence that there is a genetic component, though, including twin and family tree studies and polymorphism frequency studies.

    Two of the more prominent classes of stressors that appear to be involved in the onset of many cases of ME/CFS, based on patient histories, are infections by various pathogens, and intoxication by various types of toxic substances.

    I suggest that in the cases of people whose onset involved infections, there may be inherited genetic immune deficiencies that made them more susceptible to these infections. Some of them might be IgG subclass deficiencies or mannose binding lectin deficiency. There are no doubt other possibilities as well. In studying histories of PWMEs, I often find that they suffered from throat or respiratory infections starting early in their lives. Some had tonsillectomies at very young ages. Some of these people have reported that they had characterized immune deficiencies.

    In cases of people whose onset involved toxins, I suggest that there may be inherited genetic deficiencies in the detoxication system. These could include polymorphisms in the cytochrome P450 enzymes, or in the glutathione transferase enzymes, for examples.
    These show up fairly frequently in the Genovations Detoxigenomic Profiles that I have received from PWMEs. Although estrogens are not considered to be toxins, I have suggested in the past that women who have inherited the combination of polymorphisms in CYP1B1, COMT, and one or more of the GST enzymes are biased toward higher oxidative stress when they are catabolizing the estrogens, due to redox cycling that occurs with this combination, and I have suggested that this accounts for the higher prevalence o ME/CFS in women than in men.

    To carry this further, I now suggest that the presence of these genetic deficiencies also hinders the recovery of the people who have them.

    As many of you know, I have suggested that the GD-MCB hypothesis describes the core problem in the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. The methylation treatment, including methylfolate and high-dose B12, with some other supplements, has been shown to correct the vicious circle described by this hypothesis. However, most people who have pursued this treatment for times long enough to restore their methylation cycle, glutathione and folates, as shown by lab testing, though they report significant improvement, are still not completely recovered. I have suggested that this is due to the continuing presence of infections or toxins that were part of the etiology that caused their particular onsets, or that accumulated during the period of the illness.

    What I’m suggesting now is that a factor that allows these infections or toxins to remain, and not be eliminated by the restored immune system or the detoxication system, respectively, is that the genetic deficiencies in these systems that facilitated the onset of ME/CFS in these people are of course still present, and they are preventing full recovery by continuing to interfere with the operation of the immune system or the detoxication system.

    If this is true, then it makes sense that the immune system and/or the detoxication system will need additional help to eliminate these infections or toxins. Of course, in the case of infections, it’s also true that many pathogens have the innate capability to hide from the immune system or to frustrate its efforts, even if the immune system does not have deficiencies, and that could also be a factor in preventing the elimination of their infections.

    I’m not sure that these thoughts assist a lot in improving treatment, but perhaps they will help in understanding what’s going on. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    sianrecovery, Hanna, awl29 and 5 others like this.
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Thanks, Rich,

    This makes a lot of sense.

    Just for another bit of anecdotal patient history, I am one of those who had a lot of early childhood throat infections and a tonsillectomy at age 5. Until recent years I had a "catch everything" immune response, which switched then to a "catch nothing" immune response.

    I don't have genetic immune testing but functional immune testing showed a lot of abnormalities--many of which have normalized after GcMAF and Nexavir protocols. EBV levels also lowered.

    I'm not sure how this fits into your post above, but thought I'd throw the data into the pot!

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  3. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich - we follow all you say here - a bit of an inspiration in bringing the whole complex story together. This makes complete sense to me - my brother now has an ME like illness and a cousin diagnosed with FM, but why these should strike us all in middle age is a conundrum. All in good health before.
  4. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Many thanks Rich for posting this.

    What kind of testing is helpful to determine deficiencies? (I remember some of your posts where you did not think genetic testing was particularly helpful)

    Do you have any suggestions that may work for most on how to compensate for such deficiencies?
  5. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Great info. Thanks.

    I just wanted to add that some of may also have the gene for celiac disease.
    According to my metamatrix stool tests, I overproduce gluten antibodies to minute amounts of gluten.
    Because gluten is everywhere today (from gf foods to personal hygeine products and found in most manufacturing and distribution facilities)
    it's impossible for me to completely avoid it. So not only does this
    keep my digestive tract inflamed, it keeps my immune system working overtime.

    Tc .. X

    Ps. Fwiw. I've seen some people who barely react to treating pathogens but taking antibiotics and anti parasitic
    treatments make me too weak to function. I don't know if this indicates the level of infection or my reaction to toxins created by dying pathogens. I've found that himalaya liver care keeps my head symptoms (vertigo) in check but nothing so far has eliminated the fatigue.
  6. place

    place Be Strong!

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    Thank you Rich,
    I think you are spot on. The methylation portion is very key and important to get balanced. It has helped me a great deal. However, I have been sick all my life, nearly had to repeat a grade due to missing a good portion of school due to mono. So sick that no anitbiotic could get rid of the strep and my tonsils exploded on the sides of my esophagus. Doc said is was the worse case he has had in 30 years and had to scrap the infection off the walls of my esophagus. Yeah, I love being the best! So there is something not 100% with some of us and the immune system.
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Totally makes sense (onset from toxins). Will add Genovations Detoxigenomic Profile to my list of possible stuff to pursue.

    Has anyone figured out supplement bypasses to the detoxification system SNPs? Yasko?
  8. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    Hello Rich,i would like you to comment on me and my brother´s case,we´re 30 year old male twins,and we both have CFS.

    Background information: Growing up,no major health problems,besides asthma,we grew up in a city with with clean air,no pollution,no exposure to toxic elements.
    We always ate well (mediterranean diet),agriculture and farming where we live is not heavily mechanized as in other countries.
    Never drank alchool,never smoked,no drugs,no fast food,no sweets or candy.

    My brother got CFS at around 20 years old,there was no virus or infection,the only factor i can say,he was doing a lot of both mental effort (studying) and physical effort (weightlifting).
    It was a gradual process,he was able to manage it and be somewhat active,until this year,he got really sick and can´t work or study.

    When i was 20 years old as well,i had a lot of mental effort but no physical effort,i started getting back pain,that still plagues me today.
    I also got "weird " things that mysteriously came and went,like Restless leg syndrome,lasted some months,and acid reflux that lasted almost a year,no CFS tough.
    Four years later,i was in the same situation,high mental and physical effort,and i got CFS.

    Bloodwork: All blood work came out normal,except i had low NK cells,and low piruvate, 14.85 (ref.value 34 - 80) with lactate being 7.2 (ref.value 4.10 -19.73).
    We had brain MRI normal,Epilepsy test normal,thyroid also normal.
    We did Dr.Myhill´s Mitochondrial test,which came out positive,we have a mitochondrial problem.

    We´re doing Dr.Myhill´s protocol and improved significantly,we take multivitamin,coq10,l-carnitine,d-ribose,b12 shots,fish oils,vitamin C,Glutathione,Niacinamide.and we also do the Stone Age Diet.

    Symptoms: we have the usual CFS symptoms,post exertional fatigue and malaise,Brain fog,etc,
    He has sleep issues,i still have pain,also high sensitivity to cold.

    We´re going to do the Yasko nutrigenomic,Detoxigenomic,and an Organic acids metabolic analysis.we really think theres something Genetic here.

    Can you give me more information regarding the twin studies? and other tests we can do?

    Thanks
  9. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    if you go to the Genova website and see the Detoxigenomic sample report,they have suggestions on how to treat the SNPs.
    Here - http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/Detoxi-Genomics-Sample-Report.pdf
    merylg likes this.
  10. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    I think you are bang on Rich - I tested postive for HPU, Doc Fry's protozoa, protomyxzoa, I have a genetic disorder involving my kidneys and my body's use of calcium, I have an intestinal parasite, blastocytosis, and showed methylation defects with Yasko's tests. I improve on abx. I feel worse with Klinghart's HPU supplement the Core. I felt worse then better with your regime. I have also had exposure to a variety of toxins. The question is - where do you start? Dr Fry advises no B vits, no magnesium...I did Dr Myhill's mito package for a while and it was a better then worse thing again.
    What I cant figure out - does my metabolism downregulate protectively (very low hormone results etc) or do the infectious pathogens downregulate it to protect themselves?
    And how do I manage methylation protocol plus dealing with biofilm infections?
    I have recently improved greatly on a T3 med, so clearly some of the energy deficit came from hypo thyroid. Whether in the long term this will help or hinder, I have yet to find out.
    Hard to know how to prioritse.
    merylg likes this.
  11. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    My wife's case falls right in line with this.



    This is 100% true for her. Also, before methylation treatment, she was at the doctors 6-8 times a year for antibiotics and steroids to knock out an upper-respiratory related illness. It would be a three week recovery. So she was sick ~10-20 weeks a year. We spent more on parking garages at the med center in Houston than we currently spend on the protocol supplements.

    She has not been ill for about 22 months now.

    Also, 3-4 days off of the supplements or 1 week of sporadic dosages, depression/anxiety set in. 6-7 days without, fatigue comes roaring back. She has not been off of the supplements more than 10 days or so. The emotional changes are always a big red flag and she start up the supplements full time again.

    I would guess that a significant time off of the supplements would result in a sore throat, upper respiratory, tonsillitis, etc...
  12. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I think you may be on to something. I have had toxic insults that may have resulted in injured tissues and organs. Maybe those injured tissues organs (and infections) are now responsible for giving me a unique set of symptoms.

    My Symptoms are similar to other CFS'ers, but different because of my particular injuries and insults.
  13. place

    place Be Strong!

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    MY question is how do we fix it?
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, place.

    Me, too. I'm working on that.

    Rich
  15. dmac

    dmac

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    you have suggested the methyl test with health diag dr valentine

    and genova nutreval for mineral, vit, toxic overview

    is there a test for this genetic immune def?

    denise
  16. dmac

    dmac

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    YOU SAID

    "though they report significant improvement, are still not completely recovered. I have suggested that this is due to the continuing presence of infections or toxins that were part of the etiology that caused their particular onsets, or that accumulated during the period of the illness.

    What I’m suggesting now is that a factor that allows these infections or toxins to remain, and not be eliminated by the restored immune system or the detoxication system, respectively, is that the genetic deficiencies in these systems that facilitated the onset of ME/CFS in these people are of course still present, and they are preventing full recovery by continuing to interfere with the operation of the immune system or the detoxication system.

    If this is true, then it makes sense that the immune system and/or the detoxication system will need additional help to eliminate these infections or toxins. Of course, in the case of infections, it’s also true that many pathogens have the innate capability to hide from the immune system"


    I HAVE STUDIED AND PRACTICED CUTLER FREQUENT DOSE MERCURY PROTOCOL FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS NOW,

    I WONDER IF CUTLER WON'T SAY, IF THE IMMUNE AND DETOXIFICATION SYSTEMS ARE BETTER FROM DETOX AND METHYLATION TREATMENTS BUT NOT FULLY RESTORED, THEM THE PROBLEM IS MERCURY AND CHELATE, CHELATE, CHELATE AND THEN CHELATE SOME MORE

    IF PATHOGENS ARE STILL FESTERING, THE METALS COULD BE PRESENT COVERING UP THE PATHOGENS, THE WAY THAT MERCURY/METALS HIDES THE PATHOGENS AND PROTECT THE BODY, AND UNTIL ALL THE METALS/MERCURY IS OUT THE PATHOGENS WILL STAY PRESENT.

    IF IT IS GENETIC IMMUNE WE DO NEED TO FIGURE A WAY TO FIX THIS, AGAIN IS THERE A TEST?

    IF IT IS MERCURY AND CHELATION IS IN CONTINUIOUS ORDER, THAT IS WORTH A TRY.

    I HAVE KNOWN PEOPLE THAT DID HAIR TEST AND THE MERCURY IS LOW, IN MY OPINION IF YOU HAVE HAD VACCINES, A MOTHER FULL OF AMALGAM FILLINGS, AND A MOUTH FULL YOURSELF,
    THAT LOW NUMBER IS JUST LETTING YOU KNOW YOUR BODY IS HOLDING ON TO IT AND CHELATION IS NECESSARY TO FIRST REMOVE MERCURY THEN THEN THE PATHOGENS
    .
    I AM TRYING TO COVER ALL BASES, WITH CHELATION DMPS, OZONE INSUFFIATION, AND SAUNA (TO KILL BACTERIA AND PROVIDE OXYGEN TO BODY) , RIFING TO KILL LYME-CO INFECTIONS, PROTEOLYTIC ENZYMES, KILLING HERBS, BINDERS, AND METHYLATION TREATMENT (THE ONLY THING THAT MAY BE HARDER TO KILL WITH THESE ARE THE VIRSES AND I MAY HAVE TO ADDRESS WITH MEDS.

    THIS IS JUST A THOUGHT AND I DON'T FEEL CHELATION IS THAT HARD TO DO CONSIDERING WHAT ALL WE DO ANYWAY TO GET WELL.

    DMAC
  17. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    One of my girlfriends who suffered ME/CFS and then multiple cancers, recovered remarkably well once her estrogen production was wiped out after the chemo/radiation. Her fatigue is almost gone she says.
    Her recovery was - besides the chemo - already set in after many years of AB treatment, food rotation, supplements, etc.
    The estrogen is a key she never thought of she said.
  18. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    rereading this thread reminds me again of how much we are all going to miss Rich.

    Yes - oestrogen - I am very low in it, but have held back on bioidenticals because of a suspicion that my body has downregulated its production in order to manage long term infection. It may of course be the other way round. I wish I knew.
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It's important to note that the subject of estrogens is equally useful to both males and females since males can also produce too much estrogen. In addition, we are all exposed to various xenoestrogens which have a toxic effect on the body. Based on what Rich said about estrogens and CY450, there's another thread many would find relevant and useful which discusses that topic further: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ogens-link-to-cfs-fibromyalgia-success.17874/
    Helen likes this.

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