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When methylation is corrected... Does it release stored toxins? How do we "mop-up"?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by treefrog, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. treefrog

    treefrog

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    I have a fairly short experience of the methylation protocol. I tried it for a few weeks & got pretty ill. I assume it was working & I just got overloaded with stored toxins.

    I'd like to continue. I'll probably have to ramp it up slower. I'm just wondering if others have a big release of stored toxins & how to handle it....? Do we work this protocol up very slowly? How long does it take? (I suppose it's an individual thing.)

    What do you do to absord or excrete the toxins? What are the toxins exactly? Is it heavy metals, pesticides, chemicals? Do we need to find out what is being excreted so we can use the appropriate binder, chelator? Are there tests to find out what the toxins are - exactly?

    Have a good day, everyone!
    Lotus97 likes this.
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    ***Hi, treefrog.

    I have a fairly short experience of the methylation protocol. I tried it for a few weeks & got pretty ill. I assume it was working & I just got overloaded with stored toxins.

    ***That is one possibility for causing symptoms on this protocol. The biochemical theory associated with the treatment does support this explanation, some of the symptoms people report do seem to involve mobilization and excretion of stored toxins, and there are measurements that support toxin buildup and excretion on the treatment.

    ***Other causes of symptoms appear to be excitotoxicity and potassium deficiency. The excitotoxicity-related symptoms are insomnia, anxiety, nervousness, a "wired" feeling, and hypersensitivity of the senses. Low potassium affects the heartbeat as well as causing muscle spasms and other nervous system related effects.

    I'd like to continue. I'll probably have to ramp it up slower.

    ***Quite a few others have taken this approach. It takes longer, but is more tolerable.

    I'm just wondering if others have a big release of stored toxins & how to handle it....? Do we work this protocol up very slowly? How long does it take? (I suppose it's an individual thing.)

    ***Yes, it does seem to be an individual thing. Some people seem to have bigger body burdens of toxins than others. Probably depends on how long a person has been ill, and what they have been exposed to, before and during the illness.

    What do you do to absord or excrete the toxins? What are the toxins exactly? Is it heavy metals, pesticides, chemicals? Do we need to find out what is being excreted so we can use the appropriate binder, chelator? Are there tests to find out what the toxins are - exactly?

    ***There are some tests available. Probably the most commonly used ones are the urine toxic elements test and the red blood cell or whole blood toxic elements tests. There are also the fecal minerals test and the hair minerals test. Doctors Data is one lab that offers these, and they can be obtained through some doctors, or from www.directlabs.com without a doctor's order. In addition, US BioTek offers an environmental pollutants panel. I think that there are toxicology labs that offer pesticide tests. Which toxins a person has again will depend on what they have been exposed to, and it varies a lot. Dr. John McLaren Howard at Acumen Lab in the UK has some very nice tests that look at chemical blockers on the mitochondrial translocator protein, at adducts on the DNA,and at volatile organics in the blood. I don't think these tests are offered now to people in the U.S., because of high demand, but I have seen quite a few reports from people who have had them, and Dr. Howard finds a wide variety of toxins in different people, including chemicals from permanent hair dye, benzene and other organic solvents, perhaps from gasoline fumes, various pesticides, antiseptic agents, cleaning agents, etc.

    ***All this testing costs money of course, so most of the people I have interacted with have not done much of it, though some have. It would be wonderful if everyone could afford to run all these tests before and after doing the protocol, and then we would have great data! Dream on, Rich! :)-)

    ***As to what can be done to help get rid of the toxins, there are four approaches that I know of, some easier to do, more available, and less costly than others. They boil down to ways of removing toxins via the urine, the stools, the sweat, and directly from the blood.

    ***Urine: The idea here is to make the urine more alkaline (higher pH). By doing this, one can cause those toxins that are in the chemical form of weak acids to ionize more, and thus be more likely to go out in the urine, rather than being reabsorbed into the blood by the kidneys. Lemon juice is one way to do that, but it's important to use a drinking straw and to flush the teeth afterward so that the citric acid will not damage the enamel. Paradoxically, lemon juice, which contains citric acid, will actually cause the urine to be more alkaline, because the citrate is metabolized in the body, leaving strong base-formers (sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium) to go out in the urine.

    ***Stools: The idea here is to take substances that will bind toxins that are excreted into the gut via the bile from the liver, and make sure that they go on out in the stools, and do not get reabsorbed via the enterohepatic circulation and go back to the liver. In this category are activated charcoal, modified citrus pectin, cholestryramine, zeolites and clays, such as bentonite. Activated charcoal will adsorb a variety of organic substances (including some vitamins, so it's important not to take them together). Modified citrus pectin and other indigestible fibers can bind some toxic elements. Cholestyramine takes out negatively charged toxins, such as biotoxins (as discovered by Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker), zeolites are designed for certain atomic or molecular sized toxins, and clays will take out positively charged toxic elements. Beyond these are the chelators, which are designed to form two bonds to toxic element ions, such as mercury. The excretion can be via either the urine or the stools.

    ***Sweat: This is the sauna approach, usually the far infrared sauna. It's important to replace the water and minerals that are lost, and to remove sweat promptly, so that the toxins are not reabsorbed through the skin.

    ***Blood: This is much less commonly used, much more difficult to get access to, and more expensive. It's sort of like the dialysis that the kidney patients get, but the blood is passed over activated charcoal or another substance designed to bind a particular toxin, and then put back into the body. I think this would be lifesaving for more people if it were more widely used. Some people have high body burdens of particular toxins, and their detox system, perhaps for genetic reasons, is not able to take them out.

    Have a good day, everyone!

    ***I hope this helps, and I hope you are having a relatively good day, too!

    ***Best regards,

    ***Rich
  3. treefrog

    treefrog

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    Thank you!

    I'll have to study this & give it some contemplation...

    I think my mother actually got cancer from black hair dye - So I can relate to that one!

    I studied fine art & sculpture. I worked around aluminium, bronze, marble dust, plaster... photo chemicals, solvents for printing, pesticides, cleaning products - what have you... I did a few tests for mercury & they were pretty low but who knows how accurate they were &/or if it matters when compared to all the other stuff.

    If one has a methylation defect - the toxins could be sequestered elsewhere in the body... Just an educated guess?

    There's also the issue of mold... (as per Shoemaker). It recently dawned on me that I always get a cold & runny nose when the fall comes thoughout the winter (in the northern climate). I started thinking that it might be something to do with particular leaf mold in NJ. I lived in the south for a few years & this didn't happen. Just something to think about... I think Shoemaker was also suggesting Actos but I think there was a problem with that drug.

    How about lipid replacement therapy? Would that figure in? I bought an ultrasonic cleaner & I've been trying out making my own liposomal vitamin C. It worked great. How about liposomal glutathionine?

    The other thing I've been doing some reading on is micronized silica... Would this be helpful?

    I've been reading other people's posts & very few "professionals" are versed in this approach. In my experience it's kind of like what I would consider "di-it-yourself chemotherapy". They prescribe a bunch of stuff, the kitchen sink, basically, & you have to go home & try it out yourself. So, I'm a bit hesitant about spending alot of money on doctors...

    So, is this all "do-able" on one's own? Ultimately, it's me who will be dealing with the consequences - not a doctor who may not really know how it feels to go through a heavy detox like this. I believe some are "wounded healters" but most of the one's I've seen don't have much of a clue...

    Just some thoughts on the subject. Thanks again for your replies, Rich!
  4. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Hi treefrog,

    If you studied art & sculpture you may have a big loxic load. I am a painter and have been using lead based Cremnitz white for 10 years and more and recently did a hairtest (Doctor's Data), that showed extremely high levels of lead. So, I think it is quite acurate and matches the environnement I was in. I have been following methylation protocol for one year now, but without great success, and I am quite sure that my heavy metals load is one of the reasons for beeing stucked. I havn't yet found a proper chelator yet (that I can manage).
  5. treefrog

    treefrog

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    Hi Hanna -

    I used to be an artist's assistant. I worked for this guy who did at least 1 or 2 huge paintings all in cadnium red... I also worked in silkscreen printing around solvents & inks. What a mess. Who knew at the time?

    I'm looking into some of the less evasive ways to detox though nutrition, etc. I just came across Dr. Shade's talk about mercury on Youtube & it's pretty interesting (I posted it in another thread). I started the SMP (Simplified Methylation Protocol) a few weeks ago & I got quite ill. So, I think it's working. I just don't want to go too quickly & make myself too ill.

    I spent about 2 years doing anti-parasite protocols. I think i made alot of progress there. Some people think there's an order to doing a detox. They call it the Babuschka Principle (thanks to GiGi at Lymenet). I posted it on the other thread about parasites...

    http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/101357#000000

    After I fiished the parasite work, I did get yeast... So, there may be something to it.

    FYI -

    Order of treament following the Babuschka Principle:

    Human being - then parasites - then metals - then fungi - then bacteria - then viruses ---

    Grandmother Babuschka holds all others when stacked together. You all have seen those stacked dolls somewhere before. Here is the Human, next to it the Parasite actually living in the human;
    followed by the Fungi living in the Parasite, etc. etc.

    Parasite is holding on to toxic metals.
    Metals are causing fungi growth.
    Bacteria are the smallest

    All live within each other.

    If patient is weak, supplement what is needed first.

    Start treating KPU in the beginning, when that is positive, because the microorganisms feed off vitamins, minerals and trace minerals, and KPU facilitates everthing else.

    This is the order of treatment recommended by Dr.K. with only slight variations.

    I received this from my friend, one of the best Klinghardt practitioners in Germany after they just finished their three-day seminar with Dr. K.
    I was always aware of this, but this illustrates it best.

    Detoxing of metal, i.e. lightening the burden, starts early. Once I started to deal with toxic metals, teeth, etc., parasites started to appear and the rest followed as above. All fits exactly the pattern I went through to arrive at well.

    ART (Autonomic Response Testing) signals this exactly. I find the same thing when testing with tensor. Detoxing metals was followed by parasites, etc. etc.


    ----

    I've been looking into nutritional protocols by a Dr. Paul C. Eck. I haven't started anything but they seem interesting...

    FYI-
    http://drlwilson.com/Dr. Wilson.htm

    --

    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
  6. treefrog

    treefrog

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    6a00d83452022369e200e54f8fb68d8833-800wi.jpg

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  7. treefrog

    treefrog

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    PS - Thanks again, Rich!

    How about baking soda to alkalize the body? It may be OK on occassion...? I heard Dr. Simoncini say it doesn't help with cancer, though. Acidic environments kill parasites - so, I didn't want to go crazy with the acid/alkaline thing.

    In Northern NJ, they have a great Korean sauna place -

    http://www.kingsaunanj.com/

    http://www.kingspa.com/

    How about chlorella & cilantro? There are also blood cleansing herbs... Chapparral, red clover, etc.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I also have an art/design background and worked at a print shop and in wood refinishing. So lots of exposures there.

    Early on my doc had me take Oxygarde Forte, which has glutathione in it. I had grainfiller smell coming out of my chest and onto my robe for 2 years.

    I had trouble with FIR sauna, even with replacing minerals so had to quit that.

    I did Doctors Data Metals and Minerals test and was high in lead and mercury and low in minerals. Added betaine hydrochloride to raise stomach acid to absorb minerals. I was able to successfully chelate out the metals with a supp called Chelex which is a blend of various detoxing herbs and I think DMSA. I started with a fraction of a capsule a few times a week and gradually worked up to a full capsule. In six months my metals tested good.

    This was all before the SMP was around. I'm currently doing Thorne Labs Basic Nutrients multivitamin which contains active folate and active B12. This really helps with my chemical sensitivities. Going to try the full SMP later this year.
  9. treefrog

    treefrog

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    Chelex sounds good. Someone on another thread recommended Nature's Sunshine Heavy Metal Detox -

    Ingredients
    Vitamin B6 (pyridoxal-5-phosphate)
    Proprietary Blend
    Cilantro Leaves (Coriandrum sativum)
    Sodium Alginate (from Brown Seaweed)
    Apple Pectin
    N-Acetyl-L-cysteine
    l-Methionine
    Magnesium Citrate
    Kelp (Ascophyllum nodosum and Laminaria digitatum)
    Alpha Lipoic Acid

    I'm not sure if any of these ingredients are contra-indicated while on the SMP. I'm a bit wary of seaweed after Fukishima... They used seaweed after Chrenoble to absord radiation but it comes from the ocean near Japan. Same with chlorella... King chlorella is supposed to be grown in glass tubes in Germany - so, I got some of that.

    Some believe that the heavy metals can be moved by taking the appropriate minerals.

    re: http://www.holistic-back-relief.com/hair-analysis.html
  10. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    It is very difficult for me to figure out what to treat first (heavy metals, parasites, KPU etc...), the more I read the more I get confused. On the Better Health Guy site, it is advised by Dr K. to treat heavy metals several months before KPU, because the toxic load can be overwhelming...

    And for chelators, I need also guidance. Chlorella gave me bad side-effects, and traditionnal chelatores such as DMSA, DMPS, EDTA scare me a little bit (I am very sensitive like most of us). So, for the moment I have just practised bentonite clay footbaths regularly.
  11. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    For those of us that are more sensitive I wonder if water fasting and cleansing diets (juice fasts, fruit fasts, raw diets, etc....) might be a more natural and gentle way to detox? I dont know if you could get everything detoxed that way (especially the really tough stuff like metals) but I know many people have recovered using those methods due to the detoxifying effects.
  12. treefrog

    treefrog

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    Thanks, chilove & everyone.

    It's just so mind boggling to have to figure all of this out. One of the hardest things is to find doctors who know what they are doing & to see if they are trustworthy. Some of the tests & protocols are difficult & I can't do them on my own. I don't have the money for it but I would like to go forward...

    Alot of the descriptions of things like the KPU protocol or detoxing mercury say to have a doctor - but most of the doctors out there have no knowledge or are too expensive. I can't drill out the fillings I have by myself! The last dentist I saw had to ask why I don't want mercury amalgam fillings! I don't know what planet these people are on...

    Sorry - I just have to vent... Thanks for all the good advice. Good luck to everyone! I'm going to have to go at all of this one step at a time... I'm wondering if doing the SMP is dangerous since I feel like I'm moving the toxins... I started taking clay, charcoal & chlorella. I wasn't really expecting this. I don't think I read anywhere that correcting the methylation would increase toxin mobilization. I think I would have been more prepared if I though this would happen. I guess everyone is different.
  13. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    What is KPU??

    Treefrog, maybe find a naturopath in your area (not a traditional medicine dr.) also called osteopath or holistic who should understand the natural body processes & methylation, and that way maybe some of the tests would be covered by insurance too.

    It IS very mind boggling. As your body gets rid of this crap and starts working better, other things become imbalanced, for good or bad, and you can't always be sure what it is that's imbalanced at the moment or why!
  14. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Here's where I am coming from: I am the kind that hates to do things slowly, ramp up, what have you. If there's something wrong with me, I like to do things as fast as possible as long as I don't die or cause additional irreversible problems. Now, given that this attitude is a personality trait of mine, whether it applies to you or not is something for you to determine! :)

    I take acetyl-glutathione (3x 100mg/day) and R-lipoic acid (3x 300mg/day). R-lipoic acid helps recycle glutathione and also binds to some heavy metals in the brain.

    If you are very courageous, you could also take oral EDTA following the 5 days on, 9 days off protocol. However, EDTA is potentially dangerous so extreme care is necessary. I am going to start the EDTA protocol tomorrow. If you don't see any posts from me on Tuesday, you may assume I died. :)

    Yes, there are tests. A good start would probably be hair analysis. Something like Doctor's Data Hair Toxic Element Exposure Profile, for example. You can buy this stuff online.
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, nanonug.

    I would not like to miss reading your posts on Tuesday! You are probably aware of this, but just in case you aren't, whether or not EDTA chelation is "potentially dangerous" depends on what type of EDTA one uses to detox. Calcium disodium EDTA is the one that is FDA-approved for chelating heavy metals. Disodium EDTA can lower calcium too much and has caused serious problems in some cases. I hope you are planning to use calcium disodium EDTA and not the other one!

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Thanks for the heads up, Rich. I think I read something before about this, incidentally written by you, but I had totally forgotten!

    The product I am going to be using is Source Natural's EDTA - it is indeed calcium disodium EDTA.

    By the way, I am convinced that your Glutathione Depletion - Methyl Cycle Block hypothesis is the simplest, smartest and practical way of understanding and attacking Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, especially if combined with Yasko's genomic insights. So, thank you for this important contribution!
  17. treefrog

    treefrog

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    nanonug- I hear you about wanting to get to the bottom of this quickly! No one likes to suffer through all of this. I just found that the body has it's own rhythm sometimes. It may not go fast when you want it to...

    re: What is KPU -

    http://planetthrive.com/2010/04/hpukpu-protocol-for-lyme-and-autism/

    ----

    There are alot of tests... I spent over $10 grand on stuff. I did at least 2 mercury toxicity tests that I can recall & they were both negative. I did hair analysis tests & other ones in the past. Nothing was very conclusive. Tests aren't always accurate. I guess I've gotten to the point of trying different ways to detoxify. I like what Dr. Klinghardt says. I try to follow some of his protocols when I can afford it or tweeking it so that I can.

    He's been talking about microsilica for mercury detox. I posted a video with Dr. Chris Shade which was more in depth about his brand of silica. Interesting stuff. I may not be toxic from mercury but it may be other metals? I don't recall if I was tested... In any case, the tests can miss things if they are sequestered in the body somewhere & not circulating. Having defective methylation may be a good reason why the toxins are sequestered in the first place... Just a guess...?

    We just have to start where we are sometimes... with what we have available.
  18. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I just want to say that since I started on a diet my doctor wants me to take a pesticide test since fat stores up pesticides and dieting releases them. He thinks that is why you don't feel as good going down as you did going up. But snowathlete clued me in on the real reason...insufficient potassium. If you eat less food you need more potassium (since food = potassium). Not pesticide/toxin release at all. I just want to give an example of a case where toxins are blamed and that's not really it. It can be very difficult to sleuth this stuff out. Please don't assume toxins but be open to other possibilities too.

    Trif
  19. treefrog

    treefrog

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    Yeah, I know what you mean, triffid... Everyone wants to blame something. Since we don't really know - it could be alot of different things. Then, we waste alot of time on stuff that is way off the mark. I did this with alot of protocols in the past. If someone is diagnosed with Lyme Disease - they think everything is because of spirochetes... or mercury, or vaccines, or dairy, or sugar, or whatever. We don't really know. Even the tests can be wrong. I read some people here getting all caught up in the genetic tests - What if they are wrong? It does happen...

    There are so many things to rule out or in... I guess we all hope to get lucky one day.
  20. fishersta

    fishersta

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    I could not agree more about the genetic tests... on the one hand I read on PR that it is almost essential so you know how to apply a protocol and on the other hand I read other sites that say that the current state of genetic testing offered to the public produces meaningless results - like one study in which they sent samples to the three major testing outfits and for each person the results were totally different. So I keep holding off, thinking that not knowing is probably better than "knowing wrong."

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