William Davis - Supergut Protocol for SIBO and SIFO

[wookielove]

I decided to take another stab at helping digestion rather than living "only carnivore" for the rest of my life, and beef ribeye only carnivore at that. I wanted to post a discussion thread about the particular methods I'll use and would like some feedback on the herbal antibiotic and antifungal protocols. The protocols are outlined in the book "Supergut".

A friend of mine has been trying William Davis's methods of fermenting "yoghurt" with particular probiotics including L.rutari and L.gasseri and has had good luck, however not starting from as complex of health problems as many here "including myself" deal with. In particular, he's had luck restoring mucosal layers and stopping air from forming in the digestive tract after eating.

I've tried the l.rutari yoghurt and do get a positive boost despite some immune response from a milk allergy. I've decided to order an AIRE device that tests for both hydrogen and methane in breath and can be used frequently and repeatedly at home.

https://foodmarble.com/product/foodmarble-aire-2/

I have the device on order and will offer feedback once I get it this week.

I'll be starting with the herbal antibiotic protocol of:
CandiBactin-AR: 1–2 capsules twice per day,
CandiBactin-BR: 2 capsules twice per day, for 14 days,
Curcumin: 300–600 milligrams twice per day, for 14 days
N-acetyl cysteine: 600–1,200 milligrams twice per day for 14 days

and following up with:
essential oils (oregano, cinnamon, and clove) five or six drops per tablespoon of food oil for a minimum of four weeks

I've found some info on these essential oils but not enough. If anyone can recommend particular brands and if you should get them 100% pure and dilute them youself, or get them prediluted like most oregeno oils seem to be.

I'm sensitive to a lot of these items, particularly curcumin and n-acetyl cysteine. Comments and advice appreciated.

Here's another thread that has some references about Oregano oil:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/oil-of-oregano-for-sibo.50742/

I had to put potential improvements in my condition aside and focus on surviving for a while. I'm hoping this doesn't derail me too much.

 

[BrightCandle]

I did this and still take in L reuteri yoghurt but I dropped L Gasseri and the Beta Coagulans although this was trying to solve the extreme lactic acid split I was getting in the yoghurt. For whatever reason (and Dr Davis wasn't any help in this) it splits badly past 24 hours so I have to limit it to that period, 36 hours is far too long to get something edible at the end. In the debugging I ended up trying just L reuteri on its own and then I found 24 hours worked and I have just stuck with L reuteri at this stage but I intend to start again as I think I have contaminated it with other yoghurt I was making containing B Lognum. I have talked about it over the past 6 months or so a few times.

I didn't get anything from the herbal protocol for fungal overgrowth and before I bought a AIRE I found out the science is pretty sketchy on the claims for the device so didn't buy it in the end. But there is definitely something to yoghurts and bacterial intake in milk that helps my gut. Taking in live fermented foods definitely helps a lot, I don't really have gut issues anymore and I can eat what I want. I largely stay within very healthy fibrous foods because I got there after FODMAP so I just carried on since its a healthy diet but I can eat Pizza better than before all this started and have various takeouts that contain all sorts of garbage.

I do a lot of probiotics:

1. I take in probiotic pills of various varieties 3x a day.
2. I eat Kimchi and gerkins daily.
3. I drink kefir every morning
4. I sometimes drink commercial Kombucha (don't bother with this its millions of CFUS not billions and it made my skin spotty I am just working through the last ones slowly, I like it but its not useful)
5. I have 2x yoghurts a day, one L Reuetri based and the other a yoghurt starter with B longum.
6. Lots of fibre based food for feeding the microbiome including inulin with each meal.

I started after I got a microbiome test from biomesight that showed the types of issues I have (typical ME/CFS gut profile with the usual lacking good guys). Probiotic pills were not enough, I saw some improvement but nothing lasting. The question is will my gut continue to function if I stop this particular routine and eat a more normal daily diet and that I don't know, but the pain, gas, lactose intolerance its mostly all gone sustaining this.

The real genius idea from Dr W Davis is that you can crush up a probiotic tablet and put it into milk and then use it in a yoghurt maker. If you find you are lacking in something on a biome test and you can find a supply of human sourced bacteria then so long as it will eat something you can source (Inulin or FOS, GOS etc) and put into milk you can make yoghurt from it.

 

[LINE]

My 2 cents:
1/ Probiotics were always a gray area; I do much better with Kefir (I buy Lifeway plain). Siggis liquid yogurt also seems to work well. I experimented with a number of probiotics and never felt they did much. But that is my experience. Kefir is inexpensive @ $4 per quart.

2/ Using bone broth (chicken, organic, low sodium) was a big game changer. Broth supplies some of the nutrients necessary for a stronger barrier which means I get less reactivity from the gut. It stopped my overt anxiety. It is a cheap experiment @ $3 a quart.

3/ Collagen as peptides works well like #2, provides structural support for the gut.

4/ Vitamins A and D (along with colostrum) support immune function (SigA (Secretory Immunoglobulin A)). SiGa is found in mucous membranes.

5/ Paying attention to foods that are inflammatory. Fresh dairy, processed foods, GMO corn are big problems.

6/ Using diverse natural antibiotic compounds which is talked about in the original post. Of note are Caprylic Acid (or Monolaurin or coconut oil), goldenseal Leaf (not root), Graviola and Hemp oil. The last 3 have strong abilities to fight resistant organisms.

 

[GreenEdge]

I've tried the l.rutari yoghurt and do get a positive boost despite some immune response from a milk allergy.

There is a dairy free version - made with coconut milk/cream. The recipe can be found here:
https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/2019/09/making-l-reuteri-yogurt-with-coconut-milk/

The temperature is critical. The ideal temperature for L.Reuteri is 37°C (100°F). I use a luvele device set to 38°C.

Do verify the temperature of whatever device you are using to maintain the fermenting temperature, as not all devices are accurate. Also, some devices are pre-set for yogurt making but are set too high; if the device heats to 112 degrees F, for instance, it will kill L.Reuteri, since this species dies starting at 109 degrees F or higher.
More tips: https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/2021/07/l-reuteri-yogurt-dos-and-donts/

It's also important not to aerate the mixture as that would encourage the wrong bacteria. L.Reuteri is anaerobic.

When I make it, I add the inulin and gelatin, then 2 of 4 tins of coconut milk/cream into 2L Glass Container of luvele device. I heat it in microwave to above 37°C (100°F) so the gelatin will dissolve when mixing ingredients together using ice crushing blade of a stick blender. When you submerse the stick blender move quickly side-to-side to release any trapped air before you start mixing. When done, I add 2 tins of coconut milk/cream to lower temperature below 37°C (100°F) before adding the L.Reuteri culture.

After 36 hours there is usually about 1cm of clear liquid on the bottom that I blend in (being careful not to introduce air into mixture) before placing 2L Glass Container into refrigerator. After about 12 hours it will set solid (due to the gelatin). I then scoop out mixture into containers, add a small amount of water and mix by hand until I get the right consistency.

 

[hapl808]

I really like kefir, but it just seems to worsen my tachycardia. Probably some histamine thing, but careful use of probiotics sadly seems better for me than large amounts of kefir, kimchi, etc.

 

[wookielove]

So far I have a negative reaction to the herbal antibiotic regimine. It wore my immune system down, I believe I'm allergic to the sage in it. I stopped taking them after 4 days. 1 week of digestive problems. I ended up taking a high dose of lysine over about 3 days, about 50% higher than I'd previously taken, and digestive symptoms are worse at this point.

I think I may have been more vunerable, and the lysine perhaps depleted calcium out of my digestive tract. So far the normal remedies aren't working. I've taken calcium today which I don't normally take due to it blocking my digestive system, hopefully this brings me into some sort of functioning balance so I can go on from here.

So far this experiement has been negative.

 

[wookielove]

So the negative reaction just went to awful. Calcium helped some wound healing but not the gut.

I got a GI infection while travelling that led to a severe autoimmune condition, or likely an ongoing infection that is fed by particular types of food that creates a debilitating immune reaction.

It took me years, and I mean years, to recover to mostly normal function. I went strict carnivore, 100% ribeye diet for years to accomplish this. I finally branched out to have some fruits and sugars that don't cause inflammation, or minimally cause it. After taking this regimine for a few days, that diagnosed autoimmune response was triggered again in exactly the same manner as last time.

-GI infection, like a horrible case of TD.
-Last time I took bentonite and later inulin to help stop the TD, and the immune reaction started. Debilitating joint pain, needed help getting out of bed where I stayed most of my days during the 6 months of the severe immune attack on my joints. 27 different joints were swollen and red.
-After 4 solid days of the same TD since Friday, which is a particular type of TD I only had before this previous immune attack (international travellers know different types, don't ask details), I take a couple of charcoal capsules (equivilent to bentonite) to try and absorb some of the water and other things in my gut, because all water in my body is flowing through the large intestine.
3 hours later, the immune attack starts on the same joints. Severe pain, trouble bending over, trouble standing straight up, hard to go from sitting to standing.

It's exactly the same pattern.

I'm not sure what to do now other than fast so this thing retreats in my gut again and cover it up (hopefully) with more probiotics, or switch to 100% ribeye carnivore hopefully in a week from now where I can mostly function and it doesn't just go through me.

I've got some of the l ruteri yoghurt made up. I'm making some more coconut L ruteri now, but the quantity isn't much.

I wish I could go to a competetent hospital right now and talk to an infectious disease specialist while this thing is active. Last time, by the time I got to the hospital, I had already taken the inulin and bentonite because I had to travel so far to get home. I don't have anyone local and cannot get to one until next week, and I have to start fasting now due to commitments that won't allow bathroom trips every 30 min 24 hours/day. I've lost 10% of my body weight which isn't much to begin with already in 4 days.

If I had known this, I would have not begun this protocol. Maybe I could get at the root of my problem if I had time, but I was getting strong light sensitivity from the protocol and it was getting hard to see when the sun is out, and I was showing allergic reaction to the sage.

Any advice appreciated. I can't really think beyond identifying the pattern. I reread the posts above and maybe caprylic acid is a possiblity, but frankly I'm not sure it will stay in me long enough to do anything.

@hapl808
@GreenEdge
@LINE
@BrightCandle

 

[LINE]

So the negative reaction just went to awful. Calcium helped some wound healing but not the gut.

I got a GI infection while travelling that led to a severe autoimmune condition, or likely an ongoing infection that is fed by particular types of food that creates a debilitating immune reaction.

[/USER]

Have you done any GI studies, that is to try to identify pathogenic organisms? This is a tricky thing and I could on for a paragraph or two about testing issues.

 

[wookielove]

Have you done any GI studies, that is to try to identify pathogenic organisms? This is a tricky thing and I could on for a paragraph or two about testing issues.

Went to the emergency room yesterday. C diff diagnosed. Starting antibiotics today. It’s really hard to eat anything. Last night I ate a non fatty piece of meat the size of my palm. All symptoms worsened. I think food is creating pressure in low intestine allowing leaks which is causing joint pain. Have to eat to take antibiotics and prednisone but at this point it’s just frequent bathroom trips, not sure I’m absorbing much if any. Hoping things improve as antibiotic starts killing c diff. I’m guessing I had it since last time, and all of the inulin and specialized diet helped minimize it but I never fully healed and the c diff, although undiagnosed, was leaking into my body every time I ate something that fed it.

the herbal Antibiotic protocol must have killed the biofilm keeping the c diff in check over the 4 days I took it.

 

[minimus]

Well, it’s good to have a diagnosis, though c. diff infections are serious and can be hard to get rid of.

I became familiar with c. diff because my otherwise healthy adult daughter developed a c. diff infection early last year after a dentist who removed her wisdom teeth prescribed antibiotics on a prophylactic basis. Her college health center, which had no experience with c. diff, prescribed flagyl, unaware that most c. diff is now resistant to flagyl.

After doing my own research and fighting with our health insurance company, I was able to get my daughter a prescription for dificid. It’s a relatively new antibiotic that is still protected by a drug patent, so it is not cheap. (I seem to recall that a single treatment course costs around $2,300 in the US.) However, it is supposedly not absorbed into the bloodstream and is selective for c. diff, so it doesn’t wipe out healthy gut bacteria. As a result, the risk of c. diff recurrence is lower after treatment with dificid than with vancomycin, the standard first line treatment. Vancomycin seems to be the standard first line treatment because it is available as a generic, and therefore inexpensive. The downside is that the c. diff recurrence rate after treatment with vancomycin is kind of high at around 35%. Thankfully, my daughter’s c. diff did not recur after a single course of dificid.

Of course, if c. diff repeatedly recurs after a few rounds of vancomycin, you might become eligible for a fecal transplant, which is quite successful in treating c. diff. The upside is that some ME/CFS patients seem to experience a global improvement in ME/CFS symptoms after fecal transplant, though the improvement may not be permanent.

 

[wookielove]

@minimus

i was prescribed vancomycin. Started taking it about 30 hrs ago and already doing much better. I went back in for a prescription of deficid. it won’t be ready until Monday. new price is $5k per treatment but there is a coupon to get it for $50 on their site if your Private insurance doesn’t cover it.

i have more to update but will wait til I am at the computer.

 

[LINE]

Went to the emergency room yesterday. C diff diagnosed. Starting antibiotics today. It’s really hard to eat anything. Last night I ate a non fatty piece of meat the size of my palm. All symptoms worsened. I think food is creating pressure in low intestine allowing leaks which is causing joint pain. Have to eat to take antibiotics and prednisone but at this point it’s just frequent bathroom trips, not sure I’m absorbing much if any. Hoping things improve as antibiotic starts killing c diff. I’m guessing I had it since last time, and all of the inulin and specialized diet helped minimize it but I never fully healed and the c diff, although undiagnosed, was leaking into my body every time I ate something that fed it.

the herbal Antibiotic protocol must have killed the biofilm keeping the c diff in check over the 4 days I took it.

As @minimus said, fecal transplants are approved for c. diff infections. C. diff can be more of a challenge to get rid of. I do have a list of some natural antibiotics that can target this, let me know if you want that list. The good news is that you got a positive diagnosis which is half of the battle.

 

[wookielove]

@LINE please provide the list.

Every time I slow my digestion, which I can do effectively with inulin, bananas, and Rice Krispies, arthritis starts up. this morning no bathroom visits for 18 hours already, severe joint pain which required an extra prednisone tab.

I suspect I have a biofilm of some toxic bacteria or parasite that feeds off the above foods, and anything really that isn’t meat and immediately digestible simple sugars. When I eat them my digestion slows and that biofilm feeds and releases something through the intestinal wall that attacks the joints.

now I’m thinking to go back to more intermittant fasting with biofilm busters and eating small portions of meats with olive oil a couple times a day to make sure that bacterial biofilm doesn’t get fed And things move Faster in the gut.

i wish this was only a problem of digestion…

EDIT: found this link to a review of Prescription Assist probiotic. I took this maybe 10 years ago and had a very similar negative experience. It caused horrible eczema that never went away, I just changed my diet. Never could eat potatoes again. Putting here to document.

https://archive.ph/lC93l

 

[LINE]

@LINE please provide the list.

Every time I slow my digestion, which I can do effectively with inulin, bananas, and Rice Krispies, arthritis starts up. this morning no bathroom visits for 18 hours already, severe joint pain which required an extra prednisone tab.

I suspect I have a biofilm of some toxic bacteria or parasite that feeds off the above foods, and anything really that isn’t meat and immediately digestible simple sugars. When I eat them my digestion slows and that biofilm feeds and releases something through the intestinal wall that attacks the joints.

now I’m thinking to go back to more intermittant fasting with biofilm busters and eating small portions of meats with olive oil a couple times a day to make sure that bacterial biofilm doesn’t get fed And things move Faster in the gut.

i wish this was only a problem of digestion…

EDIT: found this link to a review of Prescription Assist probiotic. I took this maybe 10 years ago and had a very similar negative experience. It caused horrible eczema that never went away, I just changed my diet. Never could eat potatoes again. Putting here to document.

https://archive.ph/lC93l

I will have to look a little more deeply for the abx list specifically for c. diff. I do have information about biofilm eradication if you like. I think you have the idea of targeting the biofilm as a priority correct.

 

[wookielove]

@LINE Yes, I am interested in biofilm busting. I'm currently using Digest Gold enzymes with Klare Labs Interfase plus, plus taking olive oil and MCT oil.

I'm dabbling into L rutari probiotics, but avoiding most others because they have some form of starch or oligosaccharide, which aggravates the pain.

To note, about 6 hours after switching to Dificid, the acute joint pain lessened. I now have a dull ache & stiffness. I've been off Medrol for about 30 hours and I'm waiting to see what happens, if it gets worse. Started eating scrambled eggs with avacado, olive oil, and MCT oil. I think the diet change has something to do with the lessening pain.

 

[LINE]

Pathogens like to be fed and if you give them the right chemicals, they proliferate as you know. But the bigger question is what chemicals do your particular bugs like. I just had a conversation with someone who has IBS after eating cooked onions or peppers. Likely, the cooking liberates or changes certain chemicals in those foods, could be the sulfur.

Every bug has different properties and of course, the host immune system has a factor in this as well.

As far as biofilms are concerned, certain organisms can induce a higher biofilm environment. As you know, the biofilm environment should be a concern, particularly if antibiotic resistance occurs. Resistance does not solely happen due to biofilms, but they can help protect the organism from attack.

There are a number of thoughts when referencing biofilm eradication. I read Dr. Bill Costeron's research who advocated for Lactoferrin which is a chemical made by the body but can be administered as a supplement. Some use it with xylitol. I found this method to be quite effective for myself.

Keep in mind that removing biofilms can be demanding on the body. Of course, that would depend on what levels of biofilm are there. For myself, it was a push and pull type of treatment meaning when it was too much, I backed off and restarted once things settled down. I had people tell me that this treatment was very strong.

There is one product that is of interest, which is Nutricillin. Nutricillin contains lactoferrin but at smaller doses, but it has another ingredient which is Lysozyme. Lysozyme is another natural occurring chemical found in mother's milk that has antimicrobial abilities.

I have a link and other information on biofilm protocols, let me know if you want those.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

I have a link and other information on biofilm protocols

Yes please

 

[LINE]

(73) Lactoferrin // Xylitol Protocol (Simplified) - PPTU Forum (tapatalk.com)

There are a number of ways for biofilm removal, I think this one has a good chance of addressing this. That forum has lots of other valid studies on killing unwanted bugs, it is all pretty much cataloged in my head, so if you need help or have questions, better to address them here or PM me.

As with any protocol, caution should always be observed.